Episode 5: Language of Light

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about lighting matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design. [00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters. Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. This is episode number five, if you're counting, and I'm Lisa Reed, one of your co hosts today. I'm here with Avi, Avi Moore. [00:00:40] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us again today. We are very excited to have the infamous Joe Zamor with us today to talk about the languages of light. Joe, thank you for joining us. [00:00:55] Speaker C: My pleasure. Glad to be here. [00:00:57] Speaker A: And thank you for coordinating our sponsor for today, Usai Lighting. USai has been one of the first sponsors. It's just taken us a bit to get Joe and Lisa and I scheduled, which is part of the fun of putting this podcast together. But I digress. Usai. I don't know about you, Lisa. One of my favorite lines, and, you know, just the ability to get everything you need in a ceiling or from a ceiling in a package. Adjustable wall, wash down light. Small, large, big, small lumen packages. Color temperatures. Warm, dim, cool, dim. Hey. And they finally do dolly with warm, with white tuning, you know, so. And they listen. Takes a little bit sometimes, but great product. I don't know about you, Lisa. It's one of our favorites. [00:01:49] Speaker B: It is. It's a go to in our office. You kind of, you kind of named off all the features, but I think about some of the special things that they do, like cutting acoustic tiles and just having the range of products, too, because it becomes a go to kind of early in the job, people in the office sort of know the line, and so it gets thrown in, in schematic design, and then as things shake out with the cost of a project, we can find the level and still use the product. So it's good from a specification perspective. It's been a really easy. [00:02:25] Speaker A: I forgot a very important thing, which is Usai, going back to the early doe days of reviewing downlights, was the first manufacturer to pay attention to what the judges were asking for, for serviceability. And they still have the best serviceability I've seen. Now, you also have the crazy shallow housing. You have tons of options with housings. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Even though the surface mounted conduit entrance on the, on this beveled. Oh, my God. On the black series. Yeah, like, everybody copies that now. That was, that was such a nice detail when everything was, you know, there were so many industrial projects and so nice details. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely a go to for us. I don't know, Joe, what do you think about us? [00:03:16] Speaker C: You know, having been in the business, it's really nice to have an owner that is specification minded, that asks the lighting designer what they need and create products that not only can you specify, but we have the tier system. So that as we've all talked about, you know, and you've had previous podcast sessions about how do you deal with the ever changing environment of contractor and budgets and profiteering by the various parties after the design and specification is done. So I'm very proud to represent this company. It's been about nine years now and we always try to be cutting edge and always mindful of the challenges that every designer faces from your DD concepts through actually realizing a project and being able to aim it and deliver to your client the value that is part of our business that a lot of people forget about. It's all about value when it comes to me as a person, my lighting designers and the lighting design community and whole. [00:04:36] Speaker B: I don't know you very well, Joe, so something that would be good for our listeners who maybe don't know you is a little bit of background. How did you get into lighting and to where you are today? [00:04:48] Speaker C: Well, it's a long story, but to cut to the chase, I originally was a lighting designer and I worked in the entertainment, creating a lot of the nightclubs and themed environments dating back to the seventies, and learned a great deal from my access to some very talented people. And each one of those individuals taught me a different lesson. And years ago, I started playing with what was known to become architect, where I was trying to use the entertainment technology in architectural settings. And that was a long curve, getting the technology to match up to the needs. So I became a part of Martin and created architect products for them and created that and stepped out of lighting design after 25 years, went into product development and moving the needle in creating architecture products. After that, you know, I was involved with color kinetics and using their product and helping develop product. And that later led me to being one of the founders of ecosense and I created all of the initial product portfolio as the head of product development. So my role is, you know, first and foremost as a lighting designer. Then it got me into product development and then after many years of product development, I had the opportunity and got a phone call from Bonnie Littman asking me about, you know, shifting my focus and then actually going to work and taking product to the design community. So I joined the USAI about nine years ago. So my background is a. And foremost as a lighting designer. My heart is in lighting, and I'm a lighting person. And now, scary enough, almost 50 years that I'm in this business. So you learn a great deal from, you know, the very many people that I've come to know and learn from. And, you know, whether it be lighting designers like Jules Fisher or Ken Billington or Paul Gregory or, you know, Steve Terry, who is production arts, taught me about control and build, sapsus about rigging. And, you know, you learn a great deal. And I've been very fortunate to have access and work with some of the most talented, biting people over the past 50 years. And I think that has really grounded my education and taught me the most. And now the pleasure of working with designers like yourselves is the reason I'm still in this business. And, you know, the subject today is really one of tremendous value that I think a lot of the younger lighting designers don't quite understand, and that is that lighting, to different people mean a great deal of different ideas and concepts. And to some people, when you talk to an engineer, it's about technology, foot candles, you know, requirements. When you talk to James Terrell, it's about how do you implement his artistic vision? When you talk to an architect or an interior designer, it's about aesthetics. And each one of us, on a day to day basis, talk to various parts of our design team, whether it be the client who has one set of, you know, importance of understanding and the interior designer who doesn't care what's in that ceiling. They want to know what is my space going to look like? What is my fabric, what is the environment or the vibe going to be? So, you know, when Navi approached me about this, you know, it was exciting to really have a chance to discuss how to get the same message across to eight different people with eight different sets of importance and values to accomplish the same thing. Getting the trust and understanding of what it is you need to say and how to say it. That makes sense. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. I think so often people, when we say we're lighting designers, they immediately think about the fixture and they're not thinking about the quality of the light and how we express that and explain that to them. Like you said about how an interior designer is concerned about how the space feels and how their fabrics look, people think it's about the fixture. And then the first question we always get is, can you help me with the lighting in my kitchen? [00:09:46] Speaker C: Right, right, right. And, you know, the better we are at selling the story of importance to the client, to the architect, is the more they'll fight for preserving that idea, that dream. I mean, if I tell you how many times I won a project because of a napkin I drew in front of a client with this wild, crazy idea with no idea in the world how I was going to make that happen, but the excitement and energy in that presentational piece that didn't discuss a fixture, that didn't discuss a technique or the meetings necessary between the engineer and the architect and the contractors and everybody along the downstream of this execution, it wasn't important. What was important was that when I spoke to the owner, I got him excited about the concept and then it was a matter of explaining how much it would cost, which was way down the line. It was the importance of them believing in that this was going to be magical, that people walking in were going to go wow. And that his lobby, his bathroom, his all these areas that they never thought about were going to impact the success of the project, when in reality, at the end of the day, we ended up having to ve a lot of the great ideas that, you know, you pick your battles in every design and every project. A lot of designers don't realize you pick your battles. There are areas that you blow up in some regards of the design knowing that we're going to have to give back at the end of the day. But we already built these areas that we're going to give up in the fight and to preserve other areas that are of key importance. And a lot of designers don't take this into consideration. And every single item is a battle when in fact, if you have ten items that are key elements and really out of those ten, maybe six are really important and you have four that you can give up easily, that won't affect, but that, you know, everybody wants to think that they win. So the contractor needs to win, the EC needs to win. You know, the owner wants to see that it's a compromise and that you fight for what's really important. And in every one of the projects that I get involved in and I must handle and get phone calls on 25 projects a day and in every single project, it's a battle over every line item. How do we ve this whole job when in fact, you know, if we would have created ten lines out of 50 that really weren't that important, but that are there as a give back, you know, it makes life so much easier. And lighting designers, you know, they go in and some of the younger designers, you know, they, they don't understand that everything is a compromise at the end of the day. And you know, what is going to make the difference when you walk through the door of what is that story you're trying to say? What is the important thing that the architect will fight for? Out of, you know, 20 items in 20 areas, there are, what, five the architect cares about. Three, the interior designer cares about the owner and contractor. Oh, the contractor cares about profits. The owner cares about getting this thing built at a relative budget number that they had in mind. And every day, you know, I have conversations with the reps saying that, oh, the contractor asked for a vetted. I said they asked for it. At the same time they asked for the s best buy package. Right. So why are you even discussing a ve when they don't realize or even ask from the design team, is this in budget? What is the cost of delivering it? Because most lighting designers I know get budgetary numbers itemized from their reps, even though at the end of the day, they know that three quarters of the markets now package fighting. And as Derek mentioned in a previous podcast, you know, these package numbers, you can tell where the money is or what part of that package, you know, are we trying to fight for? Joe. [00:14:40] Speaker A: Joe, but you bring up a good point, right? Like, you're talking about the languages that each of those different people need, right? The contractor is trying to do profit, right. The lighting designer, some of them may be trying to get the whole thing right. And they need to understand that the electrician is there for profit. Right? And the general contractor is there for profit. And the owner wants to be a budget. Right? Like, you could call those different languages, you could call them different goals, but everybody's got to be aligned. And somebody has to be the voice of those different voices that finds that middle line and explains that. And I always call it translating between worlds. I really think that all the different people involved in jobs actually speak completely different languages. You know, the English, Spanish and Chinese, they're all saying lights. But the reality is the response to light is, well, this is profit for me. Oh, this is creative for me. Or at least as you were talking about the finish, right? Light equals finish looking. Right. So, you know, I think that language is really important and people understanding those different languages, which ultimately become different goals in a way, too. [00:15:59] Speaker C: You're absolutely correct. And I think that it's on the initial, as we talk about the language of light, it's on the meetings, in the presentation, in the subsequent meetings with the design team, the architect, the interior designer, prior to the contractors. And today we have to really spend more time, I think, in talking to the various aspects of the job, from the owner to the designer to the architect, about the value and importance of each segment that they deal with. And you know, today your jobs are being budgeted at DD. I've seen jobs and I'm working on one. Yeah, I'm working on one job. Now that's a brand new casino hotel and the contractor is budgeting it off of a mock up space. The mock up space is 5000 area they're budgeting is 250,000. That boxing in the design team before the conversation of design is even complete. And talking to the contractors as the job progresses is saying, listen, we're here to help you and we work with the designers and the owners to get there to get the end result. And as we said earlier, when you talk to a contractor, yes, they're looking at profit, but in the same breath say, listen, we designed this knowing that these areas are c of importance, these are b of importance, these are a of importance. Let's talk about savings in the b and c areas with the understanding up front that I'm going to fight you on the a's because these are critical. [00:17:58] Speaker B: You've used our word a couple times, story. I think that's a language that all people understand. And I think it is possible to get the contractor to buy into the story and get excited about at least some aspect of the design. Right, like what you just said, by prioritizing and helping them understand what an awesome project they get to be a part of. [00:18:19] Speaker C: That's correct. And in the best of circumstances, we have issues where the design team did their job. The ownership fought for the design like sphere. The designers did a great job. Ownership bought into the value of every aspect of this job. And yet the distributor of all people jumped the horse. He went ahead of everybody else and created needless situations where at the end of the day, the project still executed and a lot of the design got done. But there were mistakes that could have been avoided because no one spoke to the distributor. And even though the meetings with the design team, we brought in the contractor, we had multiple meetings with the contractor and the design team and even the rifs, but no one bothered to make sure that every box was checked and that everybody understood the story, the value, how key areas are so critical and other areas we're flexible on, we're willing to work with you. And if the designers and the lighting designers spend as much time making sure that all the different parts that you talk the right language. As we say, you're talking to the contractor about dollars and areas and what's, you know, what's important, what's not that the distributor understands that, hey, submittals are vitally important. And the reason that the designers do three rounds of submittals today and making notes so that everybody reads these things, you know, it's like people say, why don't you put instructions in a box of the fixture? Heck, those instructions go out with the cardboard. Now, we put, you know, we put information inside of the collar. We put, you know, a thing that a phone can capture, you know, information and pull up instructions on their phone because that's how. [00:20:35] Speaker B: That's who's working on this now they've got their phones, you know, if they can grab a QR code and go to installation instruction video, that's how. That's how they're working. [00:20:44] Speaker A: It's actually one of my favorite parts of the DOE testing we did back in the day is we had a fixture that would get installed, but we'd also have a fixture in a box. And so you would unpack the box and see how it was set up and how it was going to get installed. I like two things about that. One, you saw how fast you threw out the instructions, right. Because they're sitting on top of actually getting to the thing, or they were in the bottom. You know, there were multiple places where I. That just went in the garbage. But then when you're actually looking at the fixture. Okay, now, when I go to service, right. Like, we haven't talked about the language of the maintenance professional, the person who actually has to maintain this building and understanding, you know, using our sponsor today, Usai. Right. How do you get the LED array pushed up, pushed to the side, then reach around and grab the driver. Right. There's instructions right inside, built in versus looking at other manufacturers and then being able to discuss that as a lighting designer up front. This is why we're specifying this product. This is why this has potentially a premium or not, depending on what you're looking at, because for that person, that's really important, I would say, Lisa, you probably agree. I want that to look like that as long as that product's there. [00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Maintenance is so important to the longevity of our design. [00:22:18] Speaker C: And to that point, if I tell you how many times that in a conversation with a lighting designer, with the manufacturer, whether it be me or someone else, when we know it's a college or a university or an airport, and we go in and have a meeting with the maintenance team and we show these guys who hate the idea of having to put their big hand into this little opening and have to maintain this fixture for 20 years. When we go in there and we show them the ease of maintenance, half of the budget battle goes away because the maintenance team wants that fixture. And all of the contractors arguments about budget and this and that doesn't matter. The maintenance guys are the ones who tell the purchasing agent, the guys who are in charge of the money. Long term, this is the reason we want this fixture. And it's amazing how a lot of the battles go away because, yes, you're designing it with the serviceability and sustainability in mind. But when we go to the other end of the spectrum and we know it's going to be, you know, an area that the contractor leaves the job. And there are guys that, you know, they have a team of ten guys working at this university that all they do is maintain fixtures and other product on these facilities for years and years and years. And that by reaching out and having a conversation just about that makes your job of selling the job, maintaining your design so much easier. And again, it's talking in different directions to various parts of the same organization about what's important to them that makes executing your visual concept a reality. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Again, it's, it. You got to think of everybody, right, from the design side through construction all the way down to maintenance. And they all have different goals, they all have different pieces, and it's. It's incredible. And I think you, you also click on a point which is different job types, too, will have different requirements. People, languages, things that, that are required. Right, right. [00:24:47] Speaker B: You mentioned universities, but then, I don't know, hospitals, retail, you know, those are completely different. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:54] Speaker C: And every job there is generally the maintenance factor. Another big factor that we've learned and that we've had the good fortune to team up with is with Armstrong. And we found that on so many projects, whether it be with you as a lighting designer want or your interior designing, wanting squares. And we know contractors, you know, they're great with a screwdriver and a pair of cutters, but you put a sawzall in their hands, man, and all bets are off. So how do you get squares of a straight line in the center of a tile that aren't all Caddy wampus? Well, Armstrong worked with us and they pre cut tiles so that you ship in these pre cut tiles. And with that alone in a hallway or a conference room now made your specification that much stronger because everybody in the pipeline knew that, hey, we can actually accomplish something special. Then you get to the wood ceilings and if I tell you how many jobs we worked on, where the electrician takes a drawing, measures off, says it's 4ft off of this wall, he puts his electrical box on the ceiling and then tries to drop a pendant. And the ceiling contractor starts on the opposite wall, measures off of this wall, drops in his tiles, and now you have these slats and the pendant hits the slat and it's not in the opening. So now they're trying to bend the pendant and now your fixture doesn't fit in. So what happened? So we met with Armstrong and we created these grid mounts that the contractor puts his box up anywhere, drops a flexible piece of BX, and the fixture mounts to the grid, slides to the right position, pops in. Voila. An integrated, pre engineered solution. Now, the architect loves this because he doesn't have to be on job site three times. The lighting consultant doesn't need to be on the job site three times to have these coordination meetings. It was like the old Abbott and Costello who goes first, who's on second, and everybody's sitting there scratching their head, how are we going to get this to work when, as manufacturers, we listen to this and we respond to the design community, and when we pitch these ideas, when we tell the story to the architect, it makes sense. When you go to the contractor and say, hey, listen, this is a little bit more money, but at the end of the day, it's going to save you time, it's going to save these problems of having to redo things, of having extra job site meetings with the ceiling coordinator and the ceiling contractor. And again, it's speaking what's important to each of the members of this project from the initial ownership, selling the idea to get them to hire you. [00:28:04] Speaker A: And Joe, you're saying an important thing, which is the process of getting it installed too, right? We do a lot of things with architects where they want wood slats and then they want a clean line in between. And how do you get it installed? Almost thinking ahead, like you just said to the ceiling contractor, the electrician, potentially drywall millworker, how to plan that process to make it all work and find solutions or whatever. [00:28:39] Speaker C: And with the best of clients, we have these custom homes, and you order a millwork fixture because in a $20 million home, you expect that the contractor can cut a clean hole. And six months later we get a phone call, can we put a flange? Because the hole looks like I've actually. [00:29:01] Speaker A: Tried to cut a square hole in the middle of a piece of plywood in my basement to install square fixtures. It's hard. It's very hard. Right? Sawzall or jigsaw? I mean, it's not easy. [00:29:18] Speaker C: That's why we always have the conversation upfront with the contractor that a millwork guy who knows how to make a proper cut, whether it's a stone in a bathroom, it's not easy. And if you have, if the general contractor leaves it to the electrical contractor, never happened. Never happened. So your design, the owner's money, all the value leaves the proposition. Because in the initial meetings and in discussions with each of the different aspects and players in the game, those conversations didn't happen. And you know, at the end of the day, we, as whiting the lighting community have responsibilities. As we say, financial advisors have a fiduciary responsibility. We have that same type of responsibility to deliver value. And I think that the lighting designers look to the reps, the reps look to their relationships with distributors. Everybody has their relationships. But making sure that the story, the language of the conversation, that everybody really gets the right words to click. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Well, you're really talking about getting buy in from all of the parties rather than. And earlier you were using the word fighting for the design or fighting for, or things end up in a fight. I was really challenged recently by one of my clients. I liked this, she said in our office, I hate it when I hear one of the designers, designers talking about fighting for their design. Because if we're fighting our clients, then we've assumed the wrong posture. You know, we're really getting their buy in. If we're fighting them, then we've already lost. [00:31:13] Speaker C: You never fight with your client. Your client is, as we say, is always right. Right or wrong, your client is always right. It's getting their understanding that along the way, from the very first meeting along the way, they're going to be challenges based upon current market conditions and profiteering. And the business of lighting, as you guys have started discussions about is there's a business, and along the way, different people get involved that don't have the same commitment or understanding of importance to your client, to your architectural partner, to your interior designer partner, because they're all partners in executing the idea and the value that you all got hired on for in the first place. The distributor wasn't part of that conversation. He is an unknown entity along the whole process until the purchase of the package. But yet they have tremendous input as to what gets offered, what gets substituted, what is important to them getting into budget. So again, you know, when we talk about the various languages or the translation of from concept through final focus, there are many different conversations that need to take place. And each one you have to talk the same idea differently to describe it. So that you know, your engineer, when you start talking about aesthetics, his eyes close. When you talk to an interior designer about foot candles, boom, their eyes roll back in their head. They don't care. So having the right conversation with each party so that each one understands what's important in their own language. And as we said, the language of lighting is critical, even though the same conversation sounds so different to ten different people. [00:33:25] Speaker A: Joe, I wonder in the years, and maybe Lisa, you have a good answer to this too. But in the projects you've worked on, you've been involved in, have you seen success in design to construction to owner, that language being translated? And what have you seen as the success marker? What have you seen in those jobs that are successful from top to bottom that happen that makes this work? [00:33:57] Speaker C: I think in the initial conversation with the client, when you first brought on board, when you're proposing your ideas and your fees and your structure, explaining the value that you serve, and that along the process, you're going to need their support, because at the end of the day, it's the value you bring, the reason they're paying your fees, and that along the way, as Derek said, sometimes there has to be uncomfortable conversations. That's just the fact that, you know, ten years ago, you wrote a spec and no one questioned your spec. Contractors wouldn't dare, you know, offer an alternate without coming to you, the designer, and saying, hey, I have some issues getting this in budget. You know, you rule the world that I dare challenge you. But ten years ago, even six years ago, the contractor would never challenge a specification. Today they're alighting designers who are known for taking to task the contractors and pulling them out of a meeting and saying, hey, we're gonna go back into this meeting and either you're gonna say you made a mistake with your pricing, or I'm going to pull out the actual price of this product and put it on the table and show you're a thief. And in a lot of markets, these lighting designers are known and they have to pick their battles, and they don't dare pick their battles with some lighting designers. Other lighting designers put a five name spec out and what does that say to the marketplace? Doesn't matter what you give us. You know, we'll take almost anything because, you know, in those five names. A lot of times it's not apples to apples. So I think that the lighting design community and the design community has suffered so much wasted time with these contractors going around and round and round and getting five sets of submittals. You know, where you reject and reject and reject and reject and your fees have run out after the second round of submittals. And I, it gets to the point where you throw your hands up and say, I just have no more time for this. And you give up. And I think that if you get the buy in from a, the ownership who pay your fee or the architect who hires you, and you say, listen, going into this, I want a clear understanding of what is not only your scope of work, but what is the budget that ownership was presented that this project would cost. Because I speak to so many designers that get into these situations where they never got a budget, and the owner says, give me your best. And they asked for a Rolls Royce. And in the budget conversations with the contractor, negotiating the contractor, they budgeted somewhere between a Volkswagen and a Chevy. [00:37:03] Speaker A: No, no, no. That's the Hugo pricing. That's what I see all the time. [00:37:07] Speaker C: But. But yet they ask you for, give me that one. That's the best. Oh, yeah. [00:37:13] Speaker A: I want to model it. [00:37:14] Speaker B: Give me your best. [00:37:15] Speaker A: But the budgets of you go. [00:37:17] Speaker C: So when you ask, how do you. [00:37:19] Speaker B: As soon as they say that, give me your best, then I know we're going to be designing it twice because they aren't going to be able to afford the best. [00:37:26] Speaker C: So in saying there are different levels of best, it's not good, better or best, there are ten ways of getting what's important to them delivered. But the conversation about what is our objective? Not only your scope of work, but what is, you know, let's talk about it. I can do this for. And you blow up a number of dollar 50 a square foot. I could do this for $5 a foot and it's going to look like crap. Or I could do it for 20 a foot when, you know, in fact, your budget needs to be ten or $15 for that area, a square foot. And a lot of times, you know, when ownership sits with the general contractor, they say, for a building, let's allocate this a square foot for lighting, when in fact, that is a number that was used when it was fluorescent two by four drop ins for an office building, not a tech company that wants, you know, something that their employees walk in and go, wow, you know, so how do you make this work? Is that before you start your design, you understand a, areas b, areas c, areas you have budgets for. A, areas b, areas c, areas that you discuss and have a mutual understanding so that when you go into this, you have meetings with the design team, the contracting team, saying, hey, here's where we started this with these understandings. Is that what you understand? Are we on the same path? Because if everybody knows the path as well as the scope, it becomes easier to execute. And I think that the design community, the principles of the design firm, negotiate and do business development. The lead designer is running a team of designers trying to fill in the blanks, right. And at the end of the day, you have a junior person doing the CAD, inputting fixtures and sometimes doing the schedule. And that schedule might not match the initial conversations. You find that as well? [00:39:41] Speaker A: I find everything you say on just about every single job. And it's. It's interesting. I can't get into a detail, but you're speaking right to a project we're working on right now. But it's interesting. We have started to play with documenting tiers of design, right. Color mapping things and big jobs and saying, tier one, tier two, tier three. Like you said, a, b, c, d, e, f, you know, whatever you have to and such. But I. But at the same time, trying to explain to the other parties what's going on. We just spoke at IES in New York and we talked about a project that was a resi development. And the contractor and us all wanted to get the owner the cheapest value for the lighting controls possible. And of course, typical, more lights job. All dolly, right? Top to bottom, everything's Dolly because it just works. And the contractor fought us for three months. Zero to ten is cheaper. Zero to ten is cheaper. It's going to be cheaper every day. Right. And what's amazing is the two of us had the same goal, which is what the client's goal was, right. Absolutely. Lowest cost for a beautiful building. That looks beautiful, right. It's an apartment building. Right. Get as low as you can, but make it look amazing. And, you know, long story short, zero to ten, the contractors ve was an increase of cost of 34% over Dolly. And so, you know, there is this, you know, you're on the same language, you're speaking the same thing, but when somebody's in theory versus someone's in reality, right, that that becomes another challenge. And we were fortunate in that situation, like you said, to go to the owner and say, look, lets have the contractor prove it to us. Show us the line item pricing, show us the opportunity and we were able to get there and the end of the conversation was, look, heres the real price. But it took that time to have the conversation to say, hey, look, were all trying to get to the same place. Lower cost, we like the design, we just want it cheaper. [00:41:56] Speaker C: If I tell you that I hung up a phone earlier this morning and we're working on this hotel and the designer knew that the hotel room had x value for a lighting fixture. The hallway had x value. The amenity spaces had much higher value because telling the story when you walk into the space and the branding of the hotel is of four Seasons and now they're talking about wafers for the rooms and I'm like, wait a minute, this is Four Seasons. And the owner said, yeah, we can't put $15 wafers in. Let's look at a $40 fixture when in fact it's a Four Seasons. I said, but you're designing to Holiday Inn standards. And I said well, but it's 5000 fixtures. I said, well, you're getting $600 a night for that room, not $89 a night for that room. And your maintenance is going to be over a ten year period. You're going to replace that thing three times versus having a sustainable product in that room. You know what's important? Well, I think we're over budget. I said, do you think you're over budget or are you over budget? I don't know, but the contract is saying we're over budget. I said, that's because he's not making enough money. But you know, think about the brand. Think about, you know, in the old days, Marriott used to issue a book of specifications and you couldn't deviate from that book regardless of your, of your reasoning. Today we'll do five marriotts and there are five different sets of design. There's five different levels of, of product selection is, you know, so yes, we're in an ever changing environment, but I still believe that having the right conversation in the right terminology, each of the various players makes executing your commitment to your client easier and the project ending up in a better place. Yes, at the end of the day, you're going to lose battles and there are people that get involved that simply drive the ship, you know, into that wave that's going to crash over your battle and it's not going to be pretty, but you know, you pick your battles. And as a friend said to me a long time ago, I can't dance at every wedding. I can only do the best at what I can. [00:44:33] Speaker B: I think key that both of you said, too, is getting in front of the right person, getting to the decision maker. It's using the right language when you get there, but you have to get to the right person, too. [00:44:47] Speaker C: And I think that if you do, and you spend the time figuring out along a path, it takes less time to get to that person than in all the subsequent meetings you have to go to and hours you have to spend because you didn't get to that person. [00:45:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:45:08] Speaker C: Because they can eliminate a lot of the nonsense that transpires along a project and they tell them, stop the nonsense. This, what he's saying is important. And let's move on. Let's find someplace else. Let's look at the flooring, because the lighting is the last thing, you know, everybody decides on the flooring and the paint and the millwork and every other detail, and then the lighting comes at the end because no one's bothered to speak up early of that. Hey, everything else you're choosing and every decision you're making will either look good or get lost, because no one's paying attention to the value and importance that lighting really matters to everybody's project, whether they recognize it or not. Lighting matters so much. And this podcast is so valuable to getting that word out because everybody else can do a great job. And if the lighting is done by the engineer or by the electrical contractor, I don't care if they spend a dollar or a million dollars. It's not going to be everything it could be. [00:46:17] Speaker A: You're right on, Joe. I was going to sum up, because we're coming to the end here, but I was going to sum up that I find it so interesting, Lisa, that in all of our conversations we've had so far, we're talking about the language of light, we're talking about sustainability, we're talking about pricing, we're talking about design. Every single scenario comes up where we're talking about price as a part of lighting, design, languages and all the other elements. And it's so amazing how it is such a big issue in our industry. [00:46:50] Speaker C: And that is a newer situation that we all face than it was five years ago or ten years ago, because we got and approval for our budgets, especially when, and as I said, I've been in the entertainment aspect and theatrical part, and I've been in the architectural world and I've worked with the design community now going on, I don't know, 15 or 20 years. And, you know, before it was about choosing the right fixture, that accomplished the right effect and created that look that was so important to the design team ownership and the design team, and that impact of walking into a space and that environmental feel was the most important thing in the conversation. And today, we spend more time trying to get our vision executed than we spent on creating the. The appearance, the look, the story, and the story again, if you sell the story and they understand the value of that story, everybody on the design team helps get it executed and diminishes the power of the contractor and makes everybody take a harder look at the numbers, because 99% of the time, you design it in budget, and they just throw that to the side and figure out, what can they get away with. Lighting matters more than the contract they're making is profit. That's my sum. And I fight every day with my designers to find the right product, to use it properly, to choose the right housing, to understand that we have gives. And in the design process, we start with a, and we know we can move to b easily and not lose anything, but that we build in this sort of buffer from the beginning. So I'm here as a servant, as I call myself, a concierge to the lighting design world. I try to put 50 years of experience and knowledge and information to help get the idea and the story executed. And that's all I can do is my part. [00:49:16] Speaker A: When we. When we put the. The title up, we'll have to say, joe Zamor, concierge of lighting design. [00:49:24] Speaker C: Concierge to the lighting design. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Concierge to the lighting design. [00:49:28] Speaker B: All right, we got. We got our title. [00:49:30] Speaker A: Well, Joe, thank. Thank you. Again, I think this has been a really great conversation, and, again, I feel that there are multiple paths to this conversation, and I look forward to the opportunity to continue this conversation and take it in another direction. I have, like, a list of questions I want to ask you, but we're running out of time today. [00:49:54] Speaker C: Listen, anytime I'm here, as you know, I answer my phone morning, afternoon, and into the late evening, because a lot of designers, they don't have time during the day to dealing with nonsense. And at night, when it's quiet, they can get to set design, and that's when a lot of questions arise. And I was that designer on the ladder calling my friends in the middle of the night, trying to figure out something. So I always answer my phone. [00:50:23] Speaker B: That is much appreciated. I've been that designer before, too, and. [00:50:28] Speaker A: We need to thank Joe, the company you work for, USAi today, for helping sponsor this. There's some costs involved in making this podcast, and we appreciate the sponsorship USAI. [00:50:40] Speaker B: Lighting is an industry leader in the designing and manufacturing of smart, compact led fixtures for today's homes and iconic venues worldwide. With a heritage of revolutionary lighting engineering and design that dates back to the 1930s, they continue to push boundaries as a third generation family owned business based in New York's Hudson Valley. Throughout their many decades in the architectural lighting industry, they've earned numerous patents and awards for proprietary technologies. [00:51:11] Speaker A: 1930S were we using leds in the 1930s? I think it was the Mr. Sixteen s. I think of Celsius. [00:51:19] Speaker C: He actually created the first fluorescent strip for the world's fair in the 1932. [00:51:24] Speaker A: Wow. [00:51:25] Speaker B: I didn't know that. [00:51:26] Speaker A: I didn't know that. USAI's robust selection of products ranging from one inch to six inch aperture, which we were talking about earlier today. It's these strong, collaborative relationships that USAI has cultivated with the architectural and design communities that inspires them to provide state of the art lighting solutions that help partners realize their visions. [00:51:47] Speaker B: The USAI team takes pride in developing every aspect of their fixtures, from light engines to optics and thermal management, ensuring compatibility through rigorous engineering testing and product development and maintenance. [00:52:02] Speaker A: That was the cool thing. It still is. You maintain their fixtures. We have a restaurant that's 1011 years old. The led array failed the other day. Driver still working, two screws, new array down, light still working. Didn't have to touch a drywall. So important. Each new product USAI introduces pushes the limits of led research and development, resulting in a stream of industry first and awards. USAI's comprehensive platform of traditional and innovative solutions focuses on achieving the perfect balance between color technology, optical design, and superior performance, offering flexibility to meet the design and budget challenges of diverse projects. For more information, visit www. Dot usai lighting.com. joe, thank you again for being a sponsor, being a part of this podcast today, and we look forward to having it again and seeing you all soon. [00:53:03] Speaker B: Yes, thank you Joe. [00:53:05] Speaker C: My pleasure. It was truly my pleasure to share what little I can add to the conversation. [00:53:14] Speaker B: It's great information I'm having all our team listen. Thank you, thank you. Lighting matters as we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it, and share this content with your friends and colleagues. [00:53:36] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional iald lighting designer such as RBLD or more lights for your next endeavor.