Episode 15: Lighting Emotional Currency

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design. [00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters. Hey, welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. I'm so excited about our guest today. But first, I'm Lisa Reed with Reed Burkett lighting design in St. Louis. [00:00:36] Speaker A: And I'm Avi Moore with Moore Lights in Chicago. And we have our guest, Catherine. I should have asked you before, Katherine. I'm gonna screw up how you say your last name? [00:00:45] Speaker C: Ster. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Stecker. My oldest is in kindergarten and he's teaching me how to sound out words. Cause I never learned that, so. [00:00:53] Speaker B: Oh, that's interesting. [00:00:54] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, like how to actually sound out words. [00:00:56] Speaker B: My dad didn't learn that either. There's. There's a method of teaching people to read that doesn't include phonics. It's a struggle then for folks who didn't get it. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Yeah, memorization is all about memorization, right? Can is can and stack is stack and stop is stop. It's not stop. [00:01:13] Speaker B: I know. Mind blowing. That's. But that's how my dad was taught too. [00:01:17] Speaker C: Geez, Avi, you're like doing double time when you read then. [00:01:20] Speaker A: I am a very slow reader. That's why I love your podcast and many other books on tape, things like that. Cause I can process it versus well. And I'm also partially dyslexic, so that like makes all of it. I always like to say lexly disk lea. Right. Makes everything even more fun. [00:01:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker A: But we digress. Katherine. Welcome to the podcast. And we always like to start with a little, you know, tell us about yourself and how'd you get into this crazy world of lighting fun. [00:01:52] Speaker C: Well, thank you for having me. Your guys podcast is so much fun to listen to, so I am excited to be a guest. My name is Katherine Stecker. I currently live in Banton, Arkansas. We recently moved here. Husband's job. But I have been a lighting designer for almost 16, 17 years. I am a graduate of the University of Colorado through their architectural engineering program. I'm actually one of the last classes of Davis and Delora before they left. And then Sandra Vasquenes was. I was one. I was her first class. So my father told me and my sisters that he would pay for college if we became accountants or engineers. And so he was super excited because he's an accountant. He thought he was going to three accountants. He's really excited. He has three engineers, so he was like, oh, darn. So I got into college thinking I was either going to become a doctor or manufacture explosives. [00:02:50] Speaker A: So. [00:02:50] Speaker C: So I started as a chemical engineer in college. I love chemistry and I love science and I love biology and all that, but I hit a wall. First semester calculus class away from home. Just really, really, really struggled to pick up, you know, complicated math. And I had a really difficult calculus professor that told me I should quit engineering school and probably go get a business degree. And so, you know, I was devastated. This was 2004. The engineering school is 20% women, 80% men. So I. Okay, I took this D on a test and walked into my advisor's office, who was Bob Davis, and he was like, I don't think you should listen to her. How about you give me one semester, take these classes and then we'll talk at the end of that next semester. And I was like, okay, fine. And it was all these lighting classes. And so of course I then stayed in lighting because, you know, it's a good mix of engineering and creativity, but the community that exists in lighting and how everyone always shows up for each other, even as, you know, young students. There's so much involvement with the industry. It just felt like, you know, like home. So. So after that I went and I moved to la, worked for HLB in LA and met a boy and moved home and I worked for an engineer and an architect for about eight years. And I went back to HLB and worked for them in their Denver office for another seven or so years. And just last year I decided it was time and I started my own lighting design company called Stack Design Company and we're going on three months and it's been, it's been really fun. It's a lot of learning, you know, not just about lighting, but business accounting. You know, how to be brave every day. So. So far, so good. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Congratulations. That's huge. [00:04:36] Speaker C: Thank you. Yeah, the support of people who run firms like under 20 employees is really. It's not. I don't know why I would be surprised, but it's really lovely. There's such a lovely community of small business owners in the lighting industry. So I've. I've been able to have a safe place to ask, you know, all the dumb, dumb questions that pop up on the everyday. [00:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah, feel free to call anytime. I mean, Lisa, you're. You're in the larger firm category now. [00:05:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Lisa, you're no longer a small business owner. You're like a conglomerate taking over the world. [00:05:07] Speaker B: We're still under 20. Our 19th employee just started yesterday, though. So excited. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Wow, wow, wow. [00:05:15] Speaker C: Side note, I love the love story of you and Carla's friendship. That's been kind of played out on the. It just, like, I just get so much joy from it. So I really appreciate you guys from sharing that publicly because it's like, oh, this is so sweet. [00:05:28] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. [00:05:30] Speaker A: Well, and, you know, it's Carla's fault that I'm actually in architectural lighting design. [00:05:34] Speaker C: It's Carla's fault. [00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:36] Speaker C: She wields a lot of power. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Well, you know that Jayhawk connection between the three of us. And I love the photo that you all have been posting from your wedding. Lisa. It's so in the background. It's awesome. [00:05:50] Speaker C: Unusual to have wedding photo. I'm, like, trying to think, are there any light? There's a couple. My friend Chris Slaughter was at my wedding. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Oh, I'm still friends with. I know Chris. [00:05:59] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I'm like, do I have a picture. [00:06:01] Speaker B: Of him at the wedding? [00:06:02] Speaker C: I do. [00:06:03] Speaker B: You know, it was Carla and I met freshman year in second semester, and we were sort of friends all the way through school, but we had to. It was, you know, four years later before we could find a picture of ourselves together, so. [00:06:18] Speaker C: Yeah, but one that you can share publicly. [00:06:20] Speaker B: The wedding. [00:06:21] Speaker A: That you could share publicly. [00:06:25] Speaker C: Yeah, the weddings. I just. Those wedding pictures were great. [00:06:29] Speaker B: Thanks. [00:06:30] Speaker C: Thanks. [00:06:30] Speaker B: It's fun. I like, I mean, you said it. The camaraderie in lighting and the way we all support each other and it's this big love fest. And we've talked about that multiple times on the podcast, I think. But also, I don't know, maybe that's a tool. How do we use that to communicate with our clients or to embrace them in that same kind of love of lighting? [00:06:55] Speaker C: I feel like when you're working with a consultant, doesn't have to be a lighting consultant necessarily, but you can tell that they really love and embrace what they do. The architect and subsequently the owner. Really, like, they feel that, like, you know, you're just on projects sometimes where everybody just meshes so well together, and you're like, this is the best project team ever. The engineer's great, the contractor's great, architect's great. Everybody understands they're all in it together. And you're just like, this is the perfect one. And then you try to replicate that next project and you get just slightly different personalities and you're like, oh, it's not quite as fine tuned as the last one. But, like, there are Those occasional projects that are just like, this is why I want to do it. This is. We're creating, you know, making change. We're building a beautiful building. It's thoughtful. The people that are going to exist in this building are going to just feel the. The effort and the love and the energy that went into it. So I think that they get that. I mean, most lighting designers that I know are, you know, psychotically passionate about what we do, which is. Which is great. And they're so such good cheerleaders to their, you know, competition and air quotes. I think it's. It's unusual compared to other, you know, other kind of consultants on a construction project. [00:08:05] Speaker A: I love that. Psychotically passionate about it. [00:08:08] Speaker B: I think that's the title. We're psychotically passionate. [00:08:10] Speaker A: There's our title. [00:08:12] Speaker C: 100%, you know, like lighting. Lighting nerds are. [00:08:15] Speaker A: Well, there was an interesting conversation that happened last week, and I think we were talking about it a little bit before we got started about this idea that lighting designers are one of the four visual professionals involved in a project. And Lisa, you brought that up. It was something that Thomas Patterson, one of our former guests, brought up in a meeting. And it's an interesting idea. Lisa, you said that you've been thinking about it a lot. Maybe you want to expand. Interesting to hear, Katherine, your thoughts, too. [00:08:45] Speaker B: I think that it really maybe elevates lighting to its proper place in the project team. That as a. As a visual professional, because you have the architect, the interior designer, the landscape architect, and then who else is impacting the visual experience of a space? I mean, that's lighting designer. [00:09:05] Speaker C: That's it. [00:09:05] Speaker B: There are the four of us that impact what you see on a project. You know, as a visual professional. Of course, other disciplines throw things into the space that do impact what we see, not always positively. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Sprinkler heads. [00:09:17] Speaker C: They're not necessarily thinking. They're like, you know, what? Fire must put out the fire. [00:09:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Which is great. They're passionate about their discipline. [00:09:25] Speaker C: Yeah. It's funny, Lisa, when you first said that, when we were talking earlier for visual professionals, I didn't immediately think about that we were crafting the visual experience. But we're the four people also that usually only have visual to the client. Like, you rarely have an engineer, you know, civil, mechanical, like doing presentations to the client or to special interest groups. It's usually architect, engineer, landscape and lighting. Because we're also the four groups that are good, better, more well practiced at presenting, getting kind of folks to understand where we're going, why we've done it. We're visual in that way. We have a visual kind of direct line to our clients and our constituents. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Our very first podcast episode was about visualization, modeling of light. Right. That's one of our. Our ongoing challenges. [00:10:18] Speaker A: You know, it's interesting, though, I always talk about in the theater, the first thing that always comes to me is what color black is that actor or actress going to wear? Because on a stage, you're in a black space and only the lighting designer brings it all together. And I think that while I truly appreciate the four visual professionals, and I think that's very solid because we love our partners as, as we were talking about, I think there's one piece missing to that that I'm, you know, ridiculously passionate about, which is light actually brings it all together. And I've mentioned this before, let's not forget luminaire number one and maybe one A the sun and the sky. Today in Chicago, it's snowing. So, you know, it's just sky glow. But with the research that is out, and I was talking earlier, tired to get technical to some people. But RP46, which is. I just happen to be staring at it because I want to read it. The psychological and behavioral effects of lighting. We now not only control the visual experience, but also the psychological and behavioral effects that people have in spaces. [00:11:43] Speaker B: Well, and honestly, those experiences are really what our clients want to hear about. That's what they want us to tell them that we're doing with their space. How am I going to feel in this space? How are people going to experience this space? I literally had an architect tell me, don't talk to me about the beam spread. Don't talk to me about the color temperature. Just tell me how it's going to feel. [00:12:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, it seems kind of a little overwhelming to have so much power. In college, we were told lighting has the power to ruin great architecture if done poorly and has the power to really elevate architecture that maybe otherwise wouldn't be as impactful. I think I like that the IES has issued an RP about the less visual applications of lighting, because I think all of us practicing lighting designers understand there's a quality of lighting that's hard to articulate. Like, I've been in meetings before where our clients, like, for a hospital a couple years ago, we don't want those Home Depot lights. And it's like, they weren't talking about the lights for sale in Home Depot. They were talking about the way going into Home Depot, the lighting made Them feel. And when they said that, I was like, okay, let's unpack this. What don't you like about that? What is it making you feel? And then you can use that kind of common ground that you thread with your client who's, this is the only building they're going to build. Pretty, pretty likely. So they're really nervous about the outcome and being able to really understand their fear in that moment. We were able to then explain how the lighting wasn't like Home Depot. I mean, the Home Depot in a hospital or, you know, couldn't probably be farther apart in how you light them. But subsequently using that and understanding that client's fear on that, that we were able to really understand and explain how they would perceive and feel in this hospital. And you know, ultimately, having walked back through after construction with them, they're like, yeah, this doesn't feel at all like Home Depot. I'm like, well, great. This great. I mean, they love it, but yay. [00:13:44] Speaker A: It'S not a Home Depot. [00:13:45] Speaker C: Sometimes I, when I like, mentor younger designers, I'm like, occasionally it's going to feel like we're manipulating our clients because we really understand the philosophy and the psychology behind it. And you have to do a lot of explaining and kind of like, come with me on this, come with me on this. And it feels a little like manipulation because you're, you know, you are telling them things that they, that no rendering, no number, no beam spread is going to let them understand until they walk through the space and go, oh, that's what the lighting designer was talking about. Like, it's that we get so much trust placed in us as a, as a industry. It's, it's, it's pretty profound. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I gotta do it. Do it until everyone else knows they know better. Because what the lighting designer picked was too expensive or too complicated to control or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? [00:14:40] Speaker C: Trust until like guilty until proven innocent. Really? [00:14:46] Speaker A: Sometimes. Well, and I think, Lisa, it comes back to your question about, like, what are our goals for advocacy? It comes back to that, like, Catherine, what you're talking about is you get that trust, you get them to understand it, but then they still don't completely understand what your place is in this screwed up lighting. How does the light fixture get to the job site thing? Because there's so many other people who have so many other ideas that don't have the language that you just presented to them, but are directly connected to profitability and dollars and cents to get on the job site. And quite honestly, Many of them are better salespeople than we are. But you know, it depends on the customer too, right? Some of them are attached to their pocketbook, some of them care about. [00:15:36] Speaker C: I would say it's probably the challenge that our industry's facing right now. The, the impact of, and I'll use air quotes and this is a loose term value engineering on both how the project actually gets built and what the quality is and how well it's controlled and how well it's maintainable. But also the impact of value engineering on the consultant's fee. I feel like the last six years at least there were value engineering stuff in construction documents phase. Like we haven't even issued a permit set and we're still, you know, we're eight gajillion dollars over budget. But we can't, we were never given a budget. They can't really tell us what the budget is. They can't really tell you what that light costs, but we know we're eight gajillion dollars over. And so you spend 15, 30 hours of not designer time, but principal, higher up time because these are carefully curated conversations that need to be had from, you know, heads of companies and offices to other heads of companies and offices trying to explain exactly, you know, we got the client on board but now Mr. Contractor, you missed that meeting. So we got to re explain this but not in fancy thought provoking language but in numbers. And so it's, there's so much effort that goes in that's not compensated and it's, it's really tricky because I think lighting designer fees are going up because, you know, this client or this contractor is tricky. And we're going to have this, you know, 20 hours of VE that we don't, we need to account for. And then they're like, no, we can't afford that. And, but it's, it's really difficult. I've been having these conversations with all kinds of lighting friends on like, how, how do we as a unit kind of start solving this? And you know, people are always like, well it's in our spec and we really hold firm on our contract. And I'm like, nobody's not doing that. Like that's, that's like the, everyone's doing that. So like, how else do we do this? I think it depends on the area you live in. Like the relationship certain lighting designers have with their local representation. I mean, I think the advocacy. This might be a bit of a left turn, but I think, right, we have an IES group for the engineering of Lighting. And we have the ILD for the kind of protecting the design quality of the profession. The LIRC has manufacturers, but the reps don't have a place to sit in a conference room with us and have discussions about this. I think they're an ad. They're a partner in a lot of these places that really should be at the table so they understand, you know, how. How important they are. Because lighting is very complicated to get to site. And I don't think it's. No one's going to ever simplify it. It's only probably going to get more complicated. But I think we are. We. We shoot ourselves in the foot a little bit if we don't have all the players in the room. And I'm not saying we should have contractors at the ILD conference, but perhaps we should have reps because they're such an intermediary between all of the different pieces. I would be curious if inviting them, just like manufacturers, helps us start to step towards having more clarity with our clients on this chaos that happens the last. It's like the last 10% of the project just throws everything out of whack. [00:18:50] Speaker B: And clarity on the roles of each of those folks. And I think that's where it gets. It gets a little fuzzy sometimes, is what is the rep's role? And even, you know, nobody outside of our industry knows who's paying the reps, you know, and there's just a lot of clarification that if we're all in the same room and everybody is willing to work in their designated space, it does work really well. But it's when it starts to get fuzzy and people start trying to do the jobs of other folks or even just don't understand what each role is. And I think it's important for us to teach our young designers that and also to teach our clients that right. [00:19:39] Speaker C: To extend that, you know, we trust Rep A. Hey, client, here's why you should trust Rep A. Here is their job, here's what they do. We should be able to accurately explain, you know, I like. Sometimes lighting procurement, I like to explain is a black box. And the fact that, you know, I should be able to articulate every single incremental step inside that black box. Because if I am their client, the person talking about lighting can't tell them all of the arrows and the directionality at which a light fixture goes from scrap metal to the building. They're like, yeah, you don't, you don't understand it either. And now I have no trust in anything. And I'm going to trust Jimmy Contractor, who says he can save me $500,000. And then I'm like, well, I hope that Jimmy's writing you a check for $500,000. Because let's be honest, I have yet to be on a project where that magically comes back to anyone's bank account. It never. It never. It always gets, like, eaten up in the ether. And it's like, you're not. Could you just listen to us for one second? We would really. We're really good at this. Let us. Let us be in charge of it. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Right. Well, I think the other side of it is advocacy as a organization, right? I think that IALD needs to do a lot more work emphasizing the amazing work that its members do. Its members do, and what a lighting designer is and what a lighting designer is not what a lighting designer is as an advocate for the visual and apparently psychological and behavioral effects that light. Light makes on your space. Right. We are that fourth visual professional. And it has to come from there because, Katherine, you're doing that, I'm doing that. Lisa's doing that. Every single IALD member and even non IALD members that are lighting. Lighting designers, theatrical lighting designers are doing this every day as their own independent firms or persons. But there is not something at the top that you can refer to. Right? We all know what an architect does. And we know that because AIA in America and other places have their standards says what a AIA registered architect does. We know what a landscape designer does. Cause they have an association. They are very clear as to what their standards are. And the same thing with iida, asid, right? Different kinds of interior designers, but interior designers explaining what they do. The interesting thing is, you ask any member of those three organizations what IALD is. And I would be willing to bet that if you polled 100 people, 5 would know what IALD means and what that stands for, what a professional membership means. And then you could go even further and ask them if they know what LC means or cld, and you'll get one of those hundred people. And that's what I think we need each of us to do independently, but also our organization, ILD to do. And it's been my opinion they should not do anything else. Don't fly anywhere, don't meet about anything. Don't talk about anything else other than how do we take the profession from where we are today to where aia, asid, iida, and I don't know, ASLA are. [00:23:16] Speaker C: Okay? So to play the devil's advocate, A little bit. Because outside of the U.S. the role of the lighting designer sits in a different. Typically, you know, they sometimes sit inside a manufacturer. They. Their path to get procurement is different. Their path occasionally to get compensated is different. How. How would you recommend the ILD globally describe a lighting designer when so many different people could call themselves a rep doing design for a client quickly because they couldn't afford. A lighting designer is a lighting designer. Obviously, we're lighting designers. Interior designers play lighting designer a whole bunch because they understand that the built environment. I think it's more complicated to. Because we're not like licensed, stampable profession like architects, like interior designers, like landscape architects. It's very difficult, I think, to draw a really concrete circle around it. Obviously the cld, I think more so than the LC is trying to head that direction, but because it's not there yet, I think the legitimacy of our profession struggles a little bit. Like, you know, as someone who's a pe, you're like, okay, I know that they, you know, took the. That test. They passed it. Like, there's some. The government has said they are. They're good at this. Right. Like, it seems like there should be a certification level, governmental, you know, test for lighting designers. I think that clarifies who's a lighting designer and who's not. [00:24:47] Speaker A: I think the CLD and professional membership of the IALD get very close to that. But I think that you can create a box by defining. And I'm going to go back to Thomas and Lisa bringing this up. The lighting designer is the person who is ultimately responsible for the visual and behavioral effects of the light in that space. And whether they're a rep or a contractor or a manufacturer, the definition could be based on they're the responsible party. Just like the PE is the responsible party there, the architect's responsible party, the structural engineer is the responsible party. And I think there's also potentially a scope of work that needs to be clarified. I've heard arguments both ways, but I guess my feeling is when you go to the AIA website, you go to ala, you go to any of those, they have a standard. Like, this is what our members do on a job. [00:25:47] Speaker C: Right, Right. Kind of architecting for dummies. Like, hey, if you didn't know anything, you could read this and have a general understanding what an architect does. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, my argument, as you know, I'm very in love with lighting controls. I think that if you are a lighting professional, you are the visual professional. Lighting visual professional, you have to design controls. How do you turn it on and off. How do you control the sky? How do you control the sun? If you're not doing that, then how are you actually adjusting and modifying the visual environment? By specifying the perfect light fixture. Yeah, right. I mean, and plus energy code. You're going to have to have controls anyway. So. [00:26:30] Speaker C: So that right there immediately separates lighting designer from an interior designer, luminaire selector from a luminaire selector. It probably separates them from a rep to some degree. Like there are. There are probably. Yes. It's. It's an education problem that likely needs to be. Oh, I thought. I feel like most things in life. [00:26:50] Speaker B: Are education problems, but education, communication. [00:26:53] Speaker C: Communication and education. We just need to raise the level of education out there on what lighting design is. And, and hey, like, who should be doing it? What should you be asking your lighting designer? If they're. Jimmy has pulling, you know, lights out of the back of his hatchback, probably he's not your lighting designer. Compared to Lisa, who shows up with a plan and how she's going to control it and can explain and answer your questions. Like, there's some level of professionalism that I think our clients should expect. [00:27:21] Speaker B: I think we've kind of, We've, we've gone all around it and we've talked about CLD and professional ALD membership and every, all the pieces are in place. It's just a communication problem and people don't know about it. And so, you know, we're, we're right there. We're right there. All we need to do is just. [00:27:39] Speaker C: Get the message out about somebody call Christopher. I mean, I. In the ILD's defense, they are, they are dealing with a lot of changes in how they function post pandemic still that is fundamentally making them kind of work differently. And so I think they're. If, if we had never had that problem, maybe they would be. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue because we would have maybe probably already tackled it. So they're, they're hopefully dealing with that. I don't know. I'm not part of the ild. [00:28:06] Speaker A: They are. So I was fortunate enough. Yeah. So I was. For. I hadn't been to enlighten in a long time. Went out this year, had a long conversation with Andrea and it was our current president of ild. And then converse. Conversed with Christopher and said, look, we need an advocacy group. Committees carry interesting connotations, so let's just call it a group. And he said, yeah, you know, you need to put some paperwork together and so on. And so Forth. It'll take a couple of months to put this all together. Said, when's your next board meeting? And it happened to be in 45 days. It's like, great. That's when you're going to approve it. And Lisa and I and a bunch of other people got together and we wrote a document and the board approved it. So we did just have our first board meeting. You know, in true fashion, it is. I think ILD is dealing with a lot of struggles. There's a lot of things they want to do, and we all run businesses. Right. So. So that's a challenge. And I don't know about you, Catherine, but the committees, the IES committees and. And SEDG and all these other things that we're all doing, plus our businesses, plus our kids, plus da da, da, da da. [00:29:23] Speaker B: Plus our podcasts. [00:29:24] Speaker A: Plus our podcast. Yeah, both our podcast. Just add more stuff to that. [00:29:28] Speaker C: Sorry. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Yeah, and writing software now, too. I had a whole conversation about getting new software written for stuff. So it's like. So it's gonna happen. It is happening. It's unfortunate that it's taken as long as it has, but I think the other side of this is we can't really look backwards in the man. Why didn't they do it? You know, now's the time to take us to the next place. [00:29:52] Speaker C: So I'm a member of the iald and I'm a cld. I have never heard of this advocacy group. [00:29:58] Speaker B: It just. [00:29:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:00] Speaker A: Literally. [00:30:01] Speaker C: How does one join it? Because I imagine you're going to have, like, I don't know. There are 4,000 members of the ILD. How much space do you have on the advocacy group? Because I think there are many people. [00:30:09] Speaker A: As possible to get stuff done. And, you know, I'm a good. [00:30:13] Speaker C: Get stuff done. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Lofty goals. And there's a whole thing. I'll send. I'll send you after. And honestly, anybody out there listening, this probably goes against what we officially said last week, but, you know, if there's somebody interested in or has thoughts or comments, they're welcome to reach out to Lisa or I. But, yeah, I. I think this just circles back, Lisa, to your point of, we have the tools, they're all here. It's the lack of education and marketing on those things, and each of us doing that independently based on the common language. Right. Like, that's the thing. The way that you explain lighting design is a little bit different than I will. Than Lisa will. [00:30:56] Speaker C: Right. [00:30:56] Speaker A: And that's fine, but we need to also have those hooks that have the similar language. And ultimately, I think we talked about this with Rachel. Like, I would like to see us get to a point where it's like, I like Lisa's work. That's why I want to work with Lisa. Right? Just like, I like Monet versus I like Manet. I want to work with Monet. I just like what Monet does. Or Picasso. Right. Like, we are artists in the end, and we want that artistry and styling and our visual concepts to be the thing, and then everything else is just. Just comes with it. [00:31:36] Speaker C: I would say it's more complex than that, because while Lisa's work is exceptional, I reckon clients want to work with Lisa because of the service level she brings them. Right. Like, it's. Most professional lighting designers probably can do a really excellent job. Like, I have yet to look at a design and be like, oh, God, what did you do there? Right. Most people are really very proficient, but it's. It's the interaction with the client and the value that the lighting designer brings to the team that I think is what clients are after. Owners are like, yes, I liked the way Lisa explained and talked to us in that. Or the architect. At least we trust Lisa. We've worked with her before. Like, that is what I think they come back for. Not, Lisa designed this detail for this cove so perfectly. She probably did. But her way of walking through and explaining and that, I bet that's what they're coming back for. [00:32:37] Speaker B: So it's not just how the design made them feel, which we talked about earlier, but also just how the interactions, how the personal interactions make them feel. [00:32:47] Speaker C: I mean, everybody wants to work with people they enjoy working with. I think at the base level, like, you're like, everyone has that. Like, oh, I loved working with that architect and the other architects. Like, they do great work. You know, maybe we weren't a great personality fit, but there are. I think people just want to work with people who are fun and great to get along with and even keel and are passionate and want the project to succeed. And I think those lighting designers are the ones that you find clients constantly are coming, coming back for. Coming back for coming back for. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. Good point. [00:33:20] Speaker B: So something that someone on our advocacy group said that has also been sticking with me is, as a group, we, as lighting designers do need to do better. You know, you said the word proficient, and maybe we're all just proficient, and maybe if we were excellent, it wouldn't be so much of a hard sell. Like, maybe people need to really see the difference that a lighting designer makes. And not just proficient, but let's be good. He was like, we're winning awards and we shouldn't be. I've got an inexperienced team. And he's like, I know we're not that good. Lighting design as a profession should be more elevated than it is. And that has stuck with me too. [00:33:59] Speaker C: I love that there's somebody on the advocacy group thinking and questioning because you're right. There should be some constructive criticism being given. There are excellent lighting designers out there. I can think of 25. Just quickly, and I'm certain behind those 25 are the people actually coming up with the designs that we haven't met yet, because they're not out and about yet. But there are lighting designers who are, who are perfectly average. I don't know that every project needs lighting designer excellence to make that project successful. Sometimes a project needs a simple lighting design, a simple budget, but the way you interact with the client is more impactful. And that project's not winning awards, but it is impacting the people that use it and the, the client. So it's, it's tough because like we, I think everyone wants to do work, you know, ild award winning project work. But like, realistically, that's probably two projects a career, I would guess, unless somebody that's struck gold and are just getting one all the time. But like, most of our projects are kind of semi average stuff. And occasionally I do think lighting designers get in trouble where we try to maybe gold plate something that really just needs an aluminum solution, you know, like. [00:35:19] Speaker B: Yeah, and that certainly get accused of that. [00:35:21] Speaker C: Yeah, like our industry could do a better job at being like, okay, yeah, I'd love to give you this downlight that can do color tuning and adjust, you know, 359 degrees and aim and tilt and all these bells and whistles. But like, you really could get by with this $80 down light that, that does the same thing. I think that level of clarity and truth in what we design, probably we could work on a little bit more. I think that's where when I've talked to clients about budget stuff, they're like, explain to me why this light costs a million dollars. And you explain it. And they go, well, do we need that? Do we need that? Do we need that? And then you go, you know what? You probably don't. It's a lovely downlight. And I know, you know, manufacturer X did a great job on it, but manufacturer wise, downlight will suffice. And so like, maybe we need to look ourselves in the mirror and make sure, we're providing with them with the best solution, but maybe not the most excellent solution. [00:36:16] Speaker A: I completely agree. I think there's also times where, you know, an iPad works and is just much more user friendly than that Chromebook. And you know, that iPad at 200 bucks is not nearly as capable as that Chromebook, but man, it's. It just does everything you need it to do for that 200 bucks. Right. And it's got the Apple name on it. Right. [00:36:42] Speaker C: Do you think if outside of the lighting groups, so manufacturers, reps, lighting designers, whatever, do you think of our. Our clients and the contractors that we work with, ultimately the owners, if they had a more a better understanding of the cost of lighting equipment and what went into the cost of lighting equipment? Like a $800 downlight and a $200 downlight have a difference in price. And we know inherently the diff. You know, you pick it up and you're like, oh yeah, I know, I know why I'd use one and I know I'd use the other. But an owner or an architect doesn't necessarily perceive that difference other than a $600 delta. Like, what if we tried to educate those people in just like you were saying, people know the difference between an iPad and a Chromebook immediately. They have no idea between the difference in XYZ downline and other downline. Like, how do we educate them? Because that helps them go, oh, I don't need that functionality. Can I have, you know, I don't need that much ram. Can we take it down a little bit? [00:37:42] Speaker A: I have a great old story exactly to that is way, way, way back in the day, I was working on a project and this is how old it is. It's a fluorescent job. But I was specifying an EllipTipar wall wash T5, not T5HO because I always thought that was a too expensive of a lamp to light a wall. And this developer turned to me and said, why the heck do lighting designers keep picking this ridiculous, expensive manufacturer and product? I don't understand it. I'm sick and tired of it, right? So this is fluorescent. So I'm a kid at this point, right? Explaining this to developer said, can you give me two weeks? Why? It's like, let me explain this to you in two weeks. So two weeks later, I brought in a fluorescent strip with a T8 lamp on it. I brought in a fluorescent strip T8 lamp with, you know, one of those little metal reflector things. And I brought in a T8 ellipt Apar Cove fixture, right? So I instantly just saved him $5 going from T5 to a T8 lamp. And it's the same length. Right. Other than quarter of an inch on either end. Right. And we lit the wall and I brought him a distributor's cost for each of those three things when we lit the wall and he instantly turned to me and said, In 20 years, I've never fully understood why y'all pick this, but absolutely that's what I want. [00:39:15] Speaker C: I mean, yeah, you right there, you had a convert and they think it's fixture. [00:39:20] Speaker B: They think it's fixture picking. They don't understand that it's the light, the effect. [00:39:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, we have another project right now where they're looking at two different color changing downlight things. And it's all about the manufacturer's name on one and this other manufacturer they've never heard of. And we're just conversing. It's like, no, no, no, stop having this conversation. We are going to get together and we are going to look at product A and product B next to each other. And product B is going to be less expensive, but the trim and the detail and the look on a 12 foot ceiling residential installation is going to be a million times better. On this other thing you've never heard of, which is less expensive. And I know you don't care about budget, but that's fine. Versus A that has this great name and everybody thinks is the most greatest things for sliced bud, but you have to see it, right? And so I would say in all these scenarios, it comes back to that visual. We get dragged into this. I can save you $50, which actually is $100, but it's 50 bucks in the contractor's pocket and $50 to you. And as you said, Katherine, half the time we never even see that other $50 dollars. We just get dragged in that conversation. After all the beautiful conversation about feeling right and psychology and everything else, we get stuck in this conversation over 50 bucks. [00:40:53] Speaker C: So I've been doing a lot of thinking about how do you. How do you practically. Because we know it's always going to come. There's always going to be a ve issue, maybe residences aside. But most other projects, there's always somebody that has the owner's ear. Like, what are practical things that you two have done in your projects that have worked to get ahead of the budget costs or at least be a trusted member of that conversation versus the enemy in that conversation. Like, I mean, and it's not, oh, well, we write in our spec and we hold Firm to our contract because. Because most really proficient lighting centers are doing that. It's like, what are the actionable things that Suzy lighting designer could go and start practicing? And if everybody started practicing these things, maybe in six, 15 months, there's so much influx of everybody doing it that it starts to kind of shift momentum. [00:41:49] Speaker B: The thing that worked the best for me was telling the future that hey, when the contractor gets on this job and this was residential, when the contractor gets on this job, they're going to tell you that, that I'm nuts and I've made bad choices and when they do, please call me and made a client for life because it happened. [00:42:09] Speaker C: Because you're like, hey, I love that future telling. [00:42:13] Speaker A: I think our most successful thing has been providing right after a release line item pricing direct from a distributor for the entire job where it basically says, give us a credit card, cut us a check, give us a PO. And when the contractor comes back and says, oh, it's so much more money. The owner has a quote right here. [00:42:37] Speaker C: So the owner costs, could call your distributor and say, all right, here's my credit card number, I'm going to buy this package. [00:42:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:44] Speaker C: And as a way of back checking the contractor when they come going, it's this $500,000 over budget. [00:42:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And we've, and we've had clients that either a hand that quote to the electrician and say, hey, buy this. We've had projects where the owner buys it, we charge an additional fee to manage it for them. And we've had contractors say, okay, well then that's the price. I'll buy it from my distributor. And that's the end of the conversation. [00:43:12] Speaker C: Before you get there. Do you have an idea of what the budget is? Or like this is my sticking point is like there's always a budget, folks. We know there's always, there's always a budget. There's always a budget. I got a budget when I go shopping for the groceries. Yeah, no, no, like. And how do you get, how do you get those, those, those numbers out of things I'm like establishing budget would be, would be. Would be great if you could just give us. Is it 8? If it's $5, that's fine. Tell us what it is. We can. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Right? [00:43:41] Speaker C: Most of us are pretty good at math because I would say most of us are, you know, relatively engineering inclined. Like we could do some serious addition and get to your budget. [00:43:50] Speaker A: And another thing that we've done on airport projects is we don't provide manufacturer name or model numbers until the absolute last moment possible. And we tell the pricing consultant, the architect, everybody else, this is how much you hold. And we've fought it. We've fought it for a long time through all the different phases, you know, through. Through those airport projects. But I am happy to say that we have a project that we're doing right now, that it was bought as specified, no mod submittals are in our hand, and it's done. [00:44:30] Speaker C: Okay, I have questions on this. So you have a fixture schedule that is devoid of manufacturer and contract or and catalog number until like 95% CDs. And then you're just like, hey, F1 fixtures, $450. And do you publish pricing on your fixtures? [00:44:45] Speaker A: I won't even. I won't even go that far. Sometimes I'll just say, oh, you say the project costs $22 billion, light fixture package or whatever it is. Right. Just hold this. Lighting and light fish. [00:44:55] Speaker B: I didn't know you were doing this. [00:44:56] Speaker C: That's such an interesting way to do it. [00:44:58] Speaker A: It depends. I mean, really, every single project's a. [00:45:01] Speaker C: Little bit different, but having like, 15 ideas on how to manage it helps. Cause doing the same thing every time, it's like Einstein says, that's just the. What is it just the definition of stupidity? Or, like, if we do the same thing over and over and over again with and expect different results? [00:45:14] Speaker A: Like, yeah, I will say the. The other side of it is that we do have a pretty strong statement, not written, that basically says to the rep agencies and the manufacturers, who's the lighting designer on a Morelights project? And per our second podcast, as I just did. Just stop. Who's the lighting designer on a more Lights project? Oh, you are, of course. So then when you change something, am I not the lighting designer? Well, you're island. Well, again, you just said our firm was the lighting designer, but you decided there was something else to be used. So are you the lighting designer now? [00:46:00] Speaker C: Do you take on the liability of the project networking? [00:46:03] Speaker A: Well, so that's a totally separate conversation that I think is really important to have, and it's a pretty big veer from where we're going right now. But, like, we also, if we actually had a project that, you know, we only specified dolly controls, it's cheaper. There's no other way to go. And we had a project that decided they were going to go 0 to 10. The owner said it was fine, the contractor said it was cheaper, and then we got submittals and we rejected all of it. And they came back to us and said, well, you have to approve this. I said, I don't have to do anything. It's not going to work, and we can't stand behind it. So. Well, somebody has to approve this submittal because we can't order anything without an approved submittal. Well, whoever made that suggestion is the person who should approve it. And it's funny, I asked this question at Enlightened this year. I asked a couple of different lighting designers what happens when something gets submitted that's different than what you specified, and then you get the submittal. What do you do? And I was extremely surprised that about 90% of the people I talked to said, well, we then sign off on it. Said, so you just took on all the liability, 100% of the liability as to that alternate selection. And you also just. Lisa, no, Lisa, you gotta stop me if you think I'm wrong. But we remove this. But you also just degraded the profession and your firm. [00:47:33] Speaker C: I think people have a lot of fear in the full rejection of something that's not as specified. I think that people get really concerned that, you know, the next project or, you know, that if they don't do that, there's a lot of fear that they. They might lose future income and project work. I also think it's very difficult if you don't have a budget to whole wholly reject a submittal because can't actually prove that the submittal that you have fits the budget because you don't have a budget to do it. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Oh, we don't. As soon for us, you guys, as soon as a major deliverable is done, we know how much it costs. [00:48:13] Speaker C: Well, yeah, you know how much it costs, but you don't know what the client's budget is. [00:48:17] Speaker A: No, but we know what it is. We give it to them. Their eyes are wide open. [00:48:22] Speaker C: Right. [00:48:23] Speaker A: If the project has to reduce costs. We're in the middle of a project right now that we said how much a lighting should cost almost nine months ago. The contractor never listened to us. They finally priced the whole job architecturally and lighting, and the project is massively over budget. And now the conversation is, how do we get to the budget? And I said, well, where do you want to go? Yeah, we want to be a dollar. Okay, cool. Here's our fee to design the project for a dollar. Because we told you what it was and you approved it and you told us to proceed on. [00:48:57] Speaker C: Okay, so do they approve that fee? Because I think there's another level of fear that people are nervous to do that. And I agree with you. I think we have to be firmer. [00:49:07] Speaker A: We are business owners. We get paid for time. If there is somebody else that can meet your visual requirements and unfortunately the fear has to go away based on standing on your scruples and standing on your morals and standing on your. This is the way we do things. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Well, and that's, that's where having having a bigger group standing up behind you that we all say, this is the way we do things. [00:49:41] Speaker C: Every lighting designer I've ever worked with, oh, they act like this too. It's, it's a normal thing. Versus I have had very few projects where in my previous several jobs people have done that. And I'm very impressed with your bravery. [00:49:56] Speaker A: It is a rarity. But obviously it's more lights. Not because I'm Avi Moore, it's more lights because we like the spin on the more lights, less lights. It's a great pun kind of thing. But the reality is the team had a conversation and we, we started looking at our competitors around the country, great firms, people that do amazing work and getting amazing work. And we got some feedback on, you know, how opinionated and how we do some of these things and that we do walk away and we are very strong handed on some of these things. I hate that our clients get screwed. It kills me. It keeps me up at night and I will fall on a sword to like be. This is stupid. Right. And so we had a conversation internally as a firm and we said, do we soften? Do we change our direction? Do we want to be more like Frank or Sam or Joe or. I'm just totally making up names here. And we had a no, that's not who we want to be. And if that means that we stay a four person firm that's doing the most amazing stuff and we are all happy, fine. It's just not a place that we've decided we want to go. And hopefully through the podcast, through education, through all these other things and meeting great people like Lisa and Katherine and Rachel and everybody else that we've talked to. Right. And what we do becomes less of a. Wait. It's not just more lights. Like everybody's doing this. They just happen to be the loudest one we've talked to in the last six months. [00:51:41] Speaker C: I, I mean, as an industry, we have to, we need to get aligned and we are stronger together. If every project is like, nope, that's not a specified or pay me to review that, please. And I will give you my professional opinion, but I need to be compensated for the effort that this is going to require outside of the scope. I. There are a couple lighting designers who do that who are very firm in that, but they're in the minority. I think the majority of lighting folks are more kind of bowing to the whims of the contracting team for whatever reason. It's probably a little bit more complex than that. But yeah, I would love it if we were at that point where we were all like, no, no, no, no. [00:52:19] Speaker A: I was just gonna sum it up. But I was gonna throw out one other crazy thing that we all seem to be wheeling to the bends of. And Lisa and I have talked about this is this whole pay when paid nonsense too. Like, I don't, I don't. You know, I. I think that the. Now, now, obviously there's rules and all kinds of things about changing that as an industry, but, you know, there's no reason we all have to do the things the way they've done because that's the way we've done them for 50 years. [00:52:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:52:53] Speaker A: And. And the seeds of change are coming. Look at how fast LED changed. And Catherine, I would throw out this other thing too. Three line spec, an LED product. Good luck. Not impossible. That has to change as well. Right? [00:53:07] Speaker C: It's a waste of time. [00:53:08] Speaker A: The world has to change a little bit. And, you know, we can't keep doing things the way it's always been done. And we can't keep saying, well, that's the way it is, blah, blah, blah. Right. [00:53:20] Speaker C: How are you changing the pay when paid situation? Like, gosh, I think everybody would like. [00:53:25] Speaker A: Lots of insane, insane ideas that have come to me through my Vistage group. Not a single one of them has worked. But I've tried every single one of them. [00:53:35] Speaker C: I'm the one you'll tell us. [00:53:37] Speaker B: I mean, what about starting with a retainer? That's not insane. [00:53:40] Speaker C: That I've tried. I have worked at places where with a new client, they ask for a retainer. And a lot of them are fine with that. It's funny. Cause my husband is in an industry that sells and manufactures like cell phone and radio tower equipment. And I mentioned, you know, whenever, you know, that's kind of industry standard, AR timeline. And he was appalled. [00:54:03] Speaker B: I know. [00:54:04] Speaker C: And he's like, how does your industry function? Because this is. This is a stupid thing. And I was like, oh, that's not normal. And he was like, no, that's not normal. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, I don't know how to change that. [00:54:18] Speaker B: I know. [00:54:19] Speaker C: Anyone got any great ideas? I think every single lighting design from out there would love to hear it. [00:54:23] Speaker A: Well, and it's not just lighting designers. Right. It runs the entire architects. [00:54:28] Speaker C: It's not like the architects are sitting on screws. [00:54:29] Speaker A: And the architects too. And it's a construction side too. We have, we have a project in Milwaukee that was being held up because of a note about stainless steel screws. [00:54:42] Speaker B: And nobody was getting paid. [00:54:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:45] Speaker A: And there was emails back and forth from the structural engineer that just weren't found until somebody finally reached out to us that said, oh, yeah, these other things are fine. [00:54:54] Speaker B: Wow. [00:54:55] Speaker A: So it's on both sides. My theory is we all have lines of credit. Everybody does on both sides of the design side and the construction side. And I think it's that, you know, this is my funny cahooting, but the banks all know that we all have lines of credit, so they're not in any rush to release the money because in one way they're just making money on the other side. I think it's important that we all continue to talk about. Well, just because it's always been done this way doesn't mean that it needs to continue being done this way. And as we come together better through ILD cld, we voice these ideas in this podcast and other podcasts, we can hopefully slowly change the world. Because it's not just more lights or staker design or Reed Burkett lighting design that is doing these things. We are all doing them in a little bit different ways. We're calling them different things, but we're all doing the same thing. It's just the different clients don't realize that when you work with a lighting designer, they're doing these things right and they're having these struggles. Payroll and things like that. [00:56:08] Speaker B: So glad you brought it back up there, Avi. We're changing the world. I wanted to end on a positive note. I wanted to go back. You said something early, Catherine, about how much power we have as lighting designers. And there's a story that I told recently of this was just a throwaway moment. Our team was out mocking up some sample. It was a long throw, color changing led and we shined it at the top of a steeple a couple of blocks away. Just like, oh, wow, narrow beam. And oh, look at, look at that. So cool. And this woman was walking by and she stopped and said, I've had a really bad week. And I just wanted you to know that seeing that light up there gave me hope. [00:56:53] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. [00:56:55] Speaker B: Right? [00:56:56] Speaker C: That's. [00:56:57] Speaker B: We have power. [00:56:58] Speaker C: We. The. I mean, lighting is. I mean, it's yeah. It is so powerful. I mean, every day there's, like, a beautiful sunset or sunrise. I'm like, boys, come outside. You gotta look at the sunrise. They're like, mom, you're so obsessed with this. But I'm like, look how. Look how beautiful it is. Like, it's. It just. Lighting has the ability to just, you know, like, healthcare projects, you know, are. Are one of my favorite to design because I love how on somebody's quite possibly the worst day of their life, we can help be impactful and help the space that they're in getting whatever news or results make that just incrementally less horrible. It's just like. It's just so. It's so powerful, and we're. We're so privileged to be able to have such impact on so many people's lives. Like, I don't think anyone really realizes it, but, like, a lighting designer is impacting everywhere you go today. [00:57:53] Speaker A: Very much so. I don't know when. Well, Lisa, when you say that, it always makes me think of the first three words in the. The Old Testament. In the beginning, there was light. [00:58:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:58:07] Speaker A: It depends on which. Whose language and the words change a little bit. [00:58:12] Speaker C: Six words, but you're good. [00:58:14] Speaker A: A few words, but it's early. [00:58:16] Speaker B: Light is very early in there. [00:58:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's very early on. [00:58:19] Speaker C: Light is the. You know, it's. The sun is likely what allowed us to leave the ocean and become Homo sapiens. [00:58:26] Speaker B: I just. Life. [00:58:27] Speaker A: Well, this has been an amazing conversation. I really appreciate you joining us, everyone, please also check out the Whelmed podcast. We didn't get to chat about it too much, but definitely the podcast on my list that I'm listening to all the time, this one, you know, we just put it out there, but you don't. [00:58:47] Speaker C: You don't listen to that. [00:58:47] Speaker A: Well, the one, I'm, like, addicted to it. The next one comes out, I'm ready to listen. [00:58:53] Speaker C: We appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you for letting me join your podcast. I love that you guys are creating a space to advocate and give lighting designers the ability to share their own thoughts. And I love that you created that advocacy group. I think it's, you know, people like you are going to help the rest of us be better business people. [00:59:11] Speaker A: Yeah, we all get better. One of us gets better, we all get better. That's. That's the amazing part of. Of this community. [00:59:18] Speaker B: Group hug. [00:59:19] Speaker A: Group hug. All right, thanks, everybody. [00:59:23] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Lighting matters. As we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues. [00:59:41] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and denied, not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional IALD lighting designer such as RBLD or More Lights for your next endeavor. [01:00:09] Speaker B: It.