Episode 18: What Happens When Architects Ignore Lighting Design?

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting Matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design. [00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters. [00:00:24] Speaker A: Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. Lisa. Take it away. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Lisa Reed. I'm one of your co hosts for the Lighting Matters podcast, and we're here live with Avi Moore. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Hello, this is Avi. Avi Moore from morelight. Yes. [00:00:45] Speaker B: It may not work, but we're here live with Michael Bird, who is being such a good sport and letting us experiment with sharing a room and being all together. [00:00:57] Speaker C: Michael, thank you. Thanks for having me. This is exciting. [00:01:02] Speaker B: So, usually we start our interviews with a question about how you got into lighting, but you are not a lighting designer, so why don't you tell us a little about yourself? [00:01:13] Speaker C: I'm an architect, so that might tell you most of what you need to know about me. But I don't know what lighting designers do in the same way that I don't know what engineers do. I'm a failed engineer by training. I made it through two years of engineering school and said, no, this is not going to work at all. So I negotiated with my dad and said I wanted to be a graphic designer. Dad and dad said, I don't think I'm paying for an art degree. So here I am. [00:01:47] Speaker B: That's how you ended up an architect? [00:01:48] Speaker C: That's how I ended up an architect. And that's, I think, how I gained an early respect for engineers and technical designers. [00:01:59] Speaker B: That's interesting. I mean, I'm just thinking about how difficult architecture is, and most people don't end up there by default or by accident. [00:02:07] Speaker C: Is it, though? I think we make a lot out of it. You know, I think it's like doctors, right? I think doctors make a big deal out of it or lawyers make a big deal out. Out of it. But really, come on. [00:02:24] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't want to. Okay. I'm not going to say your job is easy. You can say that. [00:02:30] Speaker C: Well, architecture is one of those things where when you talk to people, you know, a lot of people say, oh, I was in architecture school, or I almost went into architecture. And I think it's a common thing for people to want to do, and then for one reason or another, they find themselves on another path. I did it the reverse. I didn't think about it when I was a kid because my guidance counselor didn't point it out to me as a possibility. But everybody was trying to steer me to engineering. I found my way here anyway. They can't keep me out. [00:03:08] Speaker B: I did want to be an architect as a kid, so. So I ended up finding my way to lighting design. So one of the reasons that we wanted to talk to you is that as a lighting designer, you and I collaborate together a lot. And I really appreciate the way that you promote lighting design to your clients. And so we wanted to ask you a little bit about that. What do you think about lighting design? [00:03:41] Speaker C: For the first several years of us being in business, I think we didn't think hard enough about the things that we didn't know as a firm. We were, we bought an existing firm and that firm was kind of a very practical, problem solving kind of practice. And when my partner and I bought it in 2007, we, I think, thought we knew everything that there was to know about the kind of work that we were doing, and we knew how to execute it because we had done these similar projects for the last few years before we bought it, and we just kept doing what we were doing. But I think we had some blind spots that, you know, we started to understand. You know, after several years of executing projects, and after several years of our projects and clients getting bigger and bigger, we had to change our approach and we had to get a little more intentional about some of the things that we were trying to accomplish and take control of some of the things that we were doing. Up to that point, it was pretty common for us to just shrug our shoulders and say that the mechanical, electrical, plumbing was all quote, unquote, design built, right? Which is, I think, pretty common, especially for the kinds of mid rise condos that we were doing a lot of at the time. I think it comes from maybe the residential world or the commercial tenant fit out world where you get your mechanical electrical design for free from the installing contractors. But as we matured, we learned that the project was better and our design intent was better executed if we exercise some control over those parts of the business. Unfortunately, it's still a difficult chore to get a mechanical engineer on a project that still is often in the hands of the contractors, but for the kinds of, I hate to call them multi family, but for the kinds of multi residential units that we do, even the high end luxury kind, it still kind of makes sense for the mechanical engineering to be on the contractor side. But we realized that there were some things that we could take control of, and lighting was one of those. So we learned a hard Lesson early on, and that's how we started to work together on a. This was on a commercial tenant fit out. But that's when I think we first had a close encounter with lighting design in our work. And we've tried to embrace it on as many projects as we could because we realized it was one of those things that was a missed opportunity if we didn't. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Michael, can you expand a little bit on the project that led you to seek out a lighting expert? Like, what happened? [00:07:02] Speaker C: We got ourselves in some trouble with the client. We did a very expensive restaurant renovation in St. Louis. And I. I'm not sure if. If it matters whether or not I talk about who it is, but it was a. A client that was expanding their restaurant portfolio and they had a concept already and they very much knew what the aesthetic was going to be and they had a high degree of control over the design. We approached it the way we would have approached any commercial fit out at the time, which was again, to leave a lot to the mechanical electrical contractors, lighting being one of them. We did a layout and we sprinkled lights around and spaced them, centered them on the things we wanted to center them on and spaced them the way that made sense aesthetically. And, you know, this looks like about the right number of little circles to draw. And then come to find out during construction that the lighting that we had looked to the vendor to design for us wasn't doing what the client expected. It made sense to us, but it actually was putting out too much light. When you dimmed these LED recessed fixtures all the way down, it was still in the client's mind, way too much light. [00:08:44] Speaker B: Well, as I recall, if I can interrupt, it was pretty early in LED usage. [00:08:51] Speaker C: It was. [00:08:52] Speaker B: People maybe hadn't figured out the whole. LEDs don't get warmer as they dim. And so they didn't like the color temperature and they didn't like what was happening when those lights were dimmed. [00:09:03] Speaker C: This was maybe 10 years ago, something like that. [00:09:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. So then you also had the. As they dim, they turn gray. So you get that gray color. [00:09:14] Speaker C: Well, that's right. There were two problems. One was the light level was too high for the client, and the other was the color, and they wanted it to be much lower. What was it? Was it. Was it half a foot candle? [00:09:28] Speaker B: Oh, I don't remember the number, but I know that I can't read the menus in that place. They want it very low. [00:09:36] Speaker C: Not, not seeing, not having the food be super well lit was key for them. And they wanted it to be a lot less and a lot more yellow. And that was the point at which, I mean, these were lights that were already installed. These were control systems that were already installed. And we were under a lot of pressure to address it, but we couldn't make those lights dim any lower. So we knew we had to get some help that we had never tried to get before. And I don't remember how I knew about you, you, but you're who I called. And you amazingly jumped in at the last minute. I think you personally were out there with meters, looking at levels and colors. [00:10:32] Speaker B: And, yeah, looking at all kinds of gels and what can we do? [00:10:37] Speaker C: You were running around after hours. I think it was fun. That's what we did. Adventure. [00:10:45] Speaker B: That's what we did. [00:10:46] Speaker C: Yeah, so there was some drama there and then, but those solutions you came up with kind of saved that. And I'm not sure what position we would have been in. We would have, I'm sure, been asked to pay for removal of fixtures and re, you know, sensor LEDs would have been completely changing out those fixtures. And we managed to avoid that. And everybody was happy and the project looks great. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Michael, one response. I hear a lot in that situation is that, well, the vendor will help me figure it out, right? So I don't want to have that. I still don't want to have that. Additional spends for a professional. I use this vendor. The vendor told me what to do. It's wrong. The vendor should fix it. I'm just. And again, if it's. I'm just. I'm trying to get after those common responses that we hear, and I wonder, you know, what happened, what, when you went to the vendor and said, hey, this is too bright, it doesn't dim low enough. You need to fix it. [00:11:56] Speaker C: I'm trying to remember if we went back to the vendor, this was no knock on them. And the way we'd worked together for years, I think we immediately felt like it was something that as the prime design consultants, we should have known more about. And so I think our inclination immediately was to take responsibility for that and realized that we needed some more expert help than was available to us for free, which, you know, made sense to us. I mean, we sell services just like you guys do, and there's a value to that. And I think it was one of those situations where we realized we should have thought more deeply about it and asked more questions about it, so we wanted to solve it ourselves. [00:13:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think possibly there had been some substitutions that you had allowed Too. So you didn't feel like you could go back to the original vendor. [00:13:10] Speaker C: I remember, but that wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, so because lights all are all the same, right? [00:13:20] Speaker A: They're just little circles on the drawing, right? Just move the circles around in the right place. [00:13:24] Speaker C: Are you going to give me a little circle that's the same size as that circle? 30 bucks less. Sounds good. [00:13:33] Speaker A: I once had a client say that to me. And so what we did was we brought the circle that we selected and the circle that the contractor selected, and we put them on the conference room table. And we pointed ours down. It was a down light. We pointed it down at the table. And the contractors, which was $2 cheaper, was sitting on the table, pointed up. It's like, why is it down light? Like, turn it upside down. Put it down. As soon as he turned it upside down, the trim fell out. It was a square trim and there. And it dented this like beautiful mahogany conference room table they had in this architect's office. And that 50 cent light fixture is what the owner decided to go with. That dented the table because resi high rise, right? There were 4,000 of them at 50 cents apiece. You kind of go that route. But fast forward in time, the submittal comes and we rejected it because we had yet to see a sample that we felt was safe to stand underneath. [00:14:48] Speaker C: Right? [00:14:49] Speaker A: I mean, let alone have a table underneath, stand underneath. And it went back and forth on, wait, but somebody has to approve this submittal. Well, but contractor, you selected this product. You have to approve it. No, no, no. You're the designer. You need to approve it. I said, you haven't shown me something that's safe. I, I can't do that. I honestly, to this day, I don't know how those fixtures showed up on the job site. But we never approved this a metal. So I think the other side of the story, right, Is get a sample, look at it, right? Make sure the circle looks the same physically. I've also taken pictures and folded them because they were just so cheap. But you can't see that on the cut sheet. You can't even see it. You can't see it anyway other than just to physically get it. And then a resi high rise or any other kind of large scale project, I mean, one of them, it's nothing, right? Compared to 2, 3, 4,000 of them. But also it's behind the ceiling, right? So as soon as that drywall goes in, like you said, that becomes a challenge. So you want to know that it's Right before you go there. And you know, if you can't get a professional, ask for one at least. Right. Don't just pick it from the cudgel. [00:16:14] Speaker C: Well, that was one of those lessons that it came at a time for in the evolution of our firm where we were, we were kind of growing up and we were also taking responsibility for a lot of other things that we had kind of shrugged off. And that's when I started getting into writing specifications myself instead of. I flirted briefly with hiring that out and then realized that, oh, it's not the writing of the specifications so much as taking the time to think through those choices that I had avoided. And so we started being a lot more sincere about a lot of technical decisions. And this was, this was just one of them. So it's impacted our work ever since. And we're always realizing that there's always one more thing that we ought to be paying closer attention to. But this was kind of the start of that evolution, I think. [00:17:16] Speaker A: Well, Michael, you said that now working with Lisa, your work has gotten better. It sounds like you were saying like the project come that your vision is more, more or less realized better. [00:17:31] Speaker C: Absolutely. The most significant example of that recently was a bank renovation that we did together, which I think entirely depended on what you did. We had a very simple idea is we're going to take this, this existing box of a building, it's very simple thing, and we're going to take the old storefront looking window system off and we're going to clad it in new seamless glass and the vision all the way through. [00:18:11] Speaker B: I'm going to make you pause though, because I think that was the genius move and it's so beautiful. And that was your decision. But go ahead now tell us how awesome the lighting is. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Well. [00:18:25] Speaker C: We were fortunate that we had a client that understood what we were after and were willing to put the resources to it. But I think baked into that choice from the very beginning was the image that we wanted at the very end, which was a beautiful photograph from the veterans, best photo, you know, photographer that we could afford, which was the night shot, right the corner looking up the hill in the city at night with this thing glowing. And so we knew that you were going to do that for us. And there was never any question or debate about, you know, whether or not you could or whether there was another better way to achieve that. You know, we'd worked together long enough that we knew, oh yeah, this is, this is a no brainer. [00:19:22] Speaker B: I get these amazing texts from Michael sometimes where he's. He's in a space and he's just like, the lighting here is so amazing, and it makes me very happy. [00:19:35] Speaker C: Well, the last one was in our building. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:19:39] Speaker C: We got the opportunity to redo the public spaces in the. In the high rise that we're in, and we're renovating spaces that were designed in the 1950s. And I think a lot of those light fixtures were original. And so it was an opportunity for us to kind of change our front door. And one of the first things they did was change the lighting. And so now they're redoing, they're putting in the flooring and putting all the other finishes and stuff. But the first change that they made was changing all the lights. And it was immediately noticeable by everybody. Oh, this is so much better. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Because lighting matters. [00:20:25] Speaker C: It's so subtle, though. I mean, you look up in the ceiling and ceiling. The lighting plan, I don't think is significantly different. But there were some key changes that you guys made to the layout. But primarily, I think it was changing the fixtures themselves and the focus of those fixtures and making sure that they were shining on the right things and not shining on the wrong things and really organizing, reorganizing the lighting of the whole thing. Because it, you know, it had shifted over the years. Right. Different lamps were put in, probably shouldn't have been, and fixtures have been changed out. That shouldn't have been. [00:21:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:19] Speaker B: I mean, I think that's something that people don't understand, that lighting designers aren't always thinking about fixtures, but we're thinking about how light impacts the space. [00:21:31] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:21:32] Speaker B: And so that's what we did in your building specifically, was they wanted it to glow from within. And the way to do that in that case was to light the walls. And so we just made sure that instead of these deep cans in the middle of the space, we got some lights near the walls and just brighten it up. [00:21:54] Speaker C: And for any architects, I guess, who haven't recognized the value, I think where you really get it is in the photographs. I think that's really where you see it, is we've taken our own photographs of our own work for a long time, but those photographs are so much better when the lighting is better. And so we can definitely see the difference. Like in the Muni, you know, that was in many ways what we would have considered a very straightforward commercial renovation. It was a gut renovation, but, you know, it was another one of those projects where we knew entirely we're going to leave it Your hands for the lighting. And you know that the spaces that are really fairly workman spaces, Right. It's the backstage at the theater, you know, they represent extremely well in the photographs. I mean, they work. And everybody loves the way the space works. And when they're doing their costume design and set work, they need functional lighting. But the space also represents very well for architects. So when you're trying to convey the value of the work that you've done, it will convey better if you have somebody who's helping you present it in the lighting design, for sure. [00:23:25] Speaker A: So, Michael, how do we get everybody to understand that the photos that are submitted for awards, the photos that are on everybody's websites, architects, interior designers, those photos can't exist without light. But light lighting, the lighting designer always seems to be a third or fourth thought in that final delivery of that image. Right. Like, I know in Chicago, for aia, we've fought very hard to acquire a list of all the consultants on awards and things like that. But what we've learned through the process is the firms submitting don't provide the information. It's not important. So there's the ability to submit it, but it doesn't happen. So, you know, the podcast that Lisa and I have here is kind of the first start. But. But, I mean, you're speaking language, but how do we expand? How do we get everybody to understand what you're saying? [00:24:42] Speaker C: I think for firms that are now where we were in their growth, I think it pays to look deeply at the kind of firms that you aspire to be. So you look at their work, that's winning the awards that you want to win. And if you don't see that information about who helped them get there, then it's incumbent on you to ask. And I think it's important to hang out with those people, the people on the technical side. So whether that's through CSI or whether that's through some other industry trade organization that puts you in the room with not just the architects or the interior designers, but the actual other tier of sub consultants that contributed to the parts of the project that kind of make it kind of elevated. So for sure, that's lighting design, Landscape design. Took me a long time to appreciate landscape designers just because I just was busy thinking about other things that I wanted to make sure we, as a small firm, covered. Once we got those things covered, then I could start to widen my view and realize, oh, there's ways to address things that matter to me that I just haven't considered yet. And this Was top of the list. [00:26:17] Speaker B: I have a question for you. Probably one of the most common questions that we are asked when we go present our services to architects is they ask us when should we engage a lighting designer. My answer is always, all the time, every job. How do you decide that? [00:26:41] Speaker C: We're fortunate in our growth that we don't have very many projects where it doesn't feel appropriate from the beginning. But for a long time I think we did have to have that conversation with our clients about the expectation. And it's not. When we started asking the question, it wasn't a hard sell as far as value goes. I mean, once you've done it a couple of times and can point to the result, I think it's a pretty easy conversation to have. But I absolutely recognize that those early conversations with clients where it's time to help them level up their product, you know, convincing them to spend a little more money up front, is on the one hand an awkward conversation, but it is a very positive conversation to have with a client who's like, you're ready for the next tier of what it is that you do. And you know, right alongside of us charging more for our services and being able to demonstrate what we can give them for that extra resource. This is one of those things as well. This is part of that conversation. So I think it's a very positive conversation to be able to have with a client, especially a long term client that hasn't thought about these things. You can bring them along with you and help them level up what it is that they do by bringing in, you know, another set of experts. Answer your question. So every project, well, we all do projects that don't get the full benefit of what we offer. Right? I mean, we do a lot of projects that are small and hard. The problem we're trying to solve is often one of economics. Trying to help them get the most that we can give them for the very, very limited construction dollars they have. So we, we don't suggest a lot of things, not just lighting design, but a lot of services that we might offer on other projects. We don't offer on those because we know that they're looking for a particular kind of value result. When they don't prioritize that and can't prioritize that, then, you know, it isn't something we suggest. But those are very small projects and very specific clients who are challenged in that way. But I think the main kind of work that we do now is we almost always offer what I think I would call Full services. [00:29:52] Speaker A: What kind of. So to expand upon Lisa's questions, what kind of tools can Lisa or other lighting designers provide you to help sell lighting design to those customers that are like, I don't know, I don't understand what they do. Are there things missing? Or Lisa's provided you with all the tools so you're all set. [00:30:24] Speaker C: I sometimes think it would be interesting to have some examples to show of a building type or a building that a client would know that is similar to what they're trying to do that isn't particularly well lit. You know, a lot of our work is developer driven. And so they are trying to sell it. I mean, their goal is to build it and sell it. And it might be useful in those kinds of cases to have a counterexample saying, this is a nice building of the kind of building that you might, you know, think about, but it's not particularly well lit. And I think you can see that in these images that it isn't compelling in a way that it is compelling when you've put that kind of thought and expertise into the lighting side. I'm thinking in my mind, especially about exterior lighting on the kinds of condo buildings that we do. So these are anywhere from 12 to 50 unit residential buildings, and they're. They're high end. Right. These aren't apartments for rental, so they're selling these as homes. They're essentially luxury homes. And just like any luxury homeowner, you would be surprised if their equivalent luxury single family in that tony neighborhood somewhere didn't have some nice exterior lighting. You know what a homeowner would probably call landscape lighting. Right. You'd be surprised if they didn't have that. It would look kind of dark and it wouldn't stand out in the way that you would expect for a house of that price point to stand out. And I think that that's something that if we got some pushback, we would probably start. Start there and say, here's an example of what you get for that investment that will definitely impact you down the line. [00:32:52] Speaker B: We have some nice before and after shots of some lighting only projects, and I'm wondering if on some of your projects that we could turn off the lights and take a picture. [00:33:05] Speaker C: That's a good idea. [00:33:06] Speaker B: And then turn them on. [00:33:08] Speaker C: I think that's a good idea. Yeah. [00:33:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I like it. [00:33:11] Speaker C: Let's do that. [00:33:11] Speaker B: Okay. [00:33:12] Speaker A: I think it'd be interesting too, to, to expand upon not just the images, but also Lisa, we've talked a lot about the value of the dollar in the design. Right. So, Michael, you were talking about, like, where the circles go and laying out the circles. A lot of times what we do is we actually use less circles, but more expensive circles. But the total dollar value is still less. Right. So especially with developers. Right. More money up front is less profit in the end. But if you can make a building look better, spend money in the process doing that, you then put more money in your pocket when you sell it, Right? Right. It's a. It's double positive for you. It looks better and it cost you less, Right? Absolutely. And I think having some of those examples would be really useful to. To the community. [00:34:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And this is an argument I've heard you make on the podcast before. So you've got those stories, you know. [00:34:24] Speaker A: I mean, but your story also made me think about in my house. I'm in the middle of a crazy renovation, and the last time I had an appraiser in the house, he walked through the house, looked at it. In the end, he's like, wow, you've done a lot. I said, I have a question for you. Did you notice all the switches and receptacles? He said, yes. So in my house, they're all screwless and decorous style. I said, so does that bring value in your evaluation of the house? He said, I can't put a dollar value to it, but what that shows me is a level of detail that I can then appraise accordingly and raise the price. So, of course, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think developers, when they refinance, they still have to compare the building to another building, and there's still appraisals that happen. Right. So there's this other element of the feel of the space being more valuable, that all of a sudden it's more valuable. Right. Just like those switch plates, there isn't an inherent value to having a decorous, screwless plate. As I'm staring at an outlet that's like caddy wampus in this room, it's driving me nuts. But there's that inherent value and quality behind that finish. And I would assume that that goes to, you know, all the finishes in the space, not just the lighting, but the lighting brings out those finishes. Right. It. It has that feel. [00:36:03] Speaker C: Absolutely. I think the. The other thing I would point to if I were using one of our projects to make the case to a client would be, again, on these banks, I talked about the glowing street image. But I think the other thing that I would point to is the way in which it Highlights the interior design choice. I think. I think Sheila did a tremendous job on this series of projects, and I think the lighting on those interiors, you know, showcases it. I think. I think the reason that it. That it, you know, is obvious to people in photographs is because of the lighting. I mean, it's one thing to be in the space, but it's extremely helpful to have it lit in the way that it is, to kind of explain it to people who are looking just at the still images. It really comes across. [00:37:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm a big believer in having good color rendering. And so then that brings out the richness of the. Those banks have a lot of wood finishes, and it brings, you know, if we have good Reds in our LEDs, it brings out the richness of the wood. [00:37:29] Speaker C: Oh, I know what I would do. The other thing I would do is take them down the street. Next to my house, there are a series of. I think they're four duplexes. And duplexes one, two, and three have these soffit lights, right, that are down lights on the facade. And 1, 2, and 3 have what I assume are the original lamps in those lights. They're warm, they're fine. They're nice. Building four, I think somebody's changed those lamps. One, one of them is out for the other. The one that they replaced it with is cold, and it. It looks so much worse. [00:38:14] Speaker B: We talked about gray. Like, it turns everything gray. [00:38:19] Speaker C: If you want to appreciate the difference, you can either go to Home Depot and push the little buttons that take you from warm to cool. But I think this is better if you could look at that facade at night and compare one next to the other. Identical buildings. Which ones look nicer to you? It's the ones that do what they're intended to do and ignore that choice. [00:38:43] Speaker A: Now, it's just all so often you walk in, you see that, but you also walk into spaces where there's one lamp that's not like the other and that is acceptable to somebody. [00:39:00] Speaker B: Why don't people notice that? [00:39:02] Speaker C: I think there's a silent majority of us that do, and we just don't speak up. Okay, maybe so you need to start speaking up. [00:39:13] Speaker B: Please, please. [00:39:15] Speaker C: Do. [00:39:16] Speaker A: You know when you walk into a hotel, and so I'm staying at a hotel this week, and the front desk has three different color temperatures. And this is, you know, Hyatt Marriott. It doesn't matter what brand. It all happens. It's just. It needs to be said something. And I think that's what we need more people to do is Just stand up and say, that's wrong. You know, when you always get now these surveys, after you stay in the hotel, how was your stay? How was the staff? Every single time I stay someplace and actually stay in a hotel in Lawrence, Kansas, where the bathroom was, like, scary because you turn the light on and you have the little flicker, right? The old fluorescent lamp trying to kick in. And then one of them was off, and they were like, oh, we want a five. When you review our space, I was like, five. It would cost you $10 to go to Home Depot and buy a new fixture there. And like, you couldn't see in the shower, right? Like. So I think the condo down the street that you're talking about, like, those. Those four, maybe it's not conformity, Right. The fourth person just bought something else and it doesn't have to conform, but is that really the color you want? Is. Is that right? If that person says it's right, okay, fine. That, like, that's their house. Right. But, like, we need more people to say, no, that's wrong. That's a problem. And it even extends. And I think I've said this a couple of times to our conferences, right. Conference on architecture for AIA should be in a space that was designed really well by an architect and lighting designers and lighting conferences should be in spaces that were designed by lighting designers, not beautiful hotels that happen to be in random beautiful locations. Right. We need to support our industry from top to bottom all the way in everything we do. [00:41:31] Speaker C: Maybe you guys need to get a booth at the Building Owners and Managers association conference. I mean, or if you know somebody at Granger, maybe you need to get them to put a little button that says, you know, when you order this lamp, have you checked to see the lamp you're replacing? [00:41:52] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, Yeah, I think. I mean, what we're talking about now is really maintenance and facilities and caring about lighting after the initial design. [00:42:05] Speaker C: Yeah, but I mean, but seriously, it does seem like it would be extremely valuable because the other thing that I think was pointed out recently on the podcast was just the evolution of technology, that things change pretty fast. And, you know, like we were talking earlier, you know, the solutions 10 years ago are different than the solutions now. And I think it would be every time, you know, a light goes out or doesn't do what it supposed to do anymore is an opportunity to rethink. You know, is. Is just replacing the lamp the right thing to do? [00:42:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:02] Speaker A: It'S a tough one. [00:43:03] Speaker C: Oh, I really stopped you. [00:43:04] Speaker A: No. Yeah, no, you got me thinking A couple things in your mind directions. I mean, is it just the light bulb? The other side that we've been getting a lot lately now too, is I can't get the keypad anymore. They stopped making my control system. Now what do I do? And I actually, on the way here at a school district, give a call. And they have seven different buildings. Each building has a different lighting control system in it. And one of the buildings has to spend 150, $200,000 just to be able to still work another building. The system doesn't exist anymore. The manufacturer said, we're done. And they're like, it's a school. I'm not going to rip out the controls and put something else in. I don't have a budget for that. So what do we do? So, you know, it's like getting back to your thing. Is just changing the light bulb the right thing? Well, you can change the light bulb, but then the switch might have to change too. And then, and then, and then. Right. And now you change the light bulb, you change the controls, but it's a little bit different. So now the finishes look off, right? [00:44:28] Speaker B: Sure. Or even as you said earlier in your project example, when we first worked together, it's not just a light bulb. You have to change the whole fixture. There's someone from our studio is giving a presentation this spring about maintenance because so many of those 10 or 15 year old projects are starting to fail. And those early LEDs, it was with Chuck, it, you know, replace the whole entire fixture. And just starting to talk in the industry about modularity and making things replaceable, easily replaceable. Avi's a big proponent of that. [00:45:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. We actually have a photo from a restaurant we did that Casey was at last week, I think, and the LED fried. So we had the new LED board and the old LED board and you can just see like the LED is just black. No idea why, but it's 10 years old. But luckily in this situation, two screws, the LED board comes out, new board goes in and you're all set. And that just happened to be, well, I guess our good specification. Right. It was a product that we knew we could change the light bulb, the light bulb, which is now a circuit board. But yeah, having those opportunities, that same project that we were talking about, where the trim hit the table, the driver for that fixture was on the other side of the junction box. So to service it, you had to like go in, turn your hand like 180 degrees. [00:46:11] Speaker B: How many joints do you need in your. [00:46:13] Speaker A: In a 4 inch hole to get that driver off and go back. And again, the question got posed and the developer said, this is a condo buying. Once the owner buys it, I'm done. So if the driver breaks and they have to open up the drywall, that's not my problem. It's somebody else's problem. 50 cents apiece, 4,000 fixtures. I have to take that option. [00:46:42] Speaker B: Wow. So anything else we need to cover? [00:46:50] Speaker A: So where do we go from here? How do we. I don't know. This is. Michael, it's great having you having a different perspective of light, and I love to hear how well the relationship is going and keep it going. Right. And I think we just use this podcast, use our opportunities to keep talking about how the architect, lighting designer relationship brings on these gorgeous projects, gorgeous images, which I think. I don't know if you said it, but we should say too, which I'm sure is bringing your firm more business. Right? You show the photos and that gives you more business. [00:47:32] Speaker C: Well, it's hard to quantify that, but I think that's been the story of our growth, you know, since. Since we started thinking in those terms. You know, it certainly hasn't, you know, detracted from our. From our growth. We're getting better projects, you know, clients that are more ambitious. And I think they. They look at our portfolio and they recognize that we can. We can meet that ambition. And it was not. That was not a story that we were able to tell when we first started out. We couldn't point to, you know, past efforts that looked like what I think the clients of today would have wanted. So it builds on itself and it's an investment every time. [00:48:20] Speaker A: Awesome. I love it. Well, our first live in person recording. Hopefully this works. [00:48:30] Speaker B: Yes, I hope it works. I think we should do high fives or something. [00:48:34] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. So that way we all actually Here. There we go. So live from St. Louis. [00:48:43] Speaker B: All right. Lighting Matters. Thank you, Michael. [00:48:46] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:48:47] Speaker C: This was a treat. [00:48:49] Speaker B: Lighting Matters, as we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time, and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues. [00:49:05] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general applications, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional IALD lighting designer, such as RBLD or More Lights for your next endeavor.