Episode 20: Landscape Architecture Meets Lighting Design

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design. [00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters. Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. I am one of your hosts, Lisa Reed with Reed Burkitt lighting design in St. Louis. And we have a really interesting guest today. I'm so excited. But first, my co host. [00:00:40] Speaker A: This is Avi Moore with more lights, based in Chicago. And yeah, I'm very excited about our guest today, Rob Ruland. See? Saying it right, right? Did I get it? No, I still think you got it. [00:00:53] Speaker B: You got it. [00:00:55] Speaker A: Rob. Thanks for joining us. [00:00:58] Speaker C: Thanks, Avi. Thanks, Lisa. Happy to be here. [00:01:01] Speaker A: And so, Rob, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do and how you got into it and go from there. [00:01:10] Speaker C: Oh, wow. That's where to start, because it is a long story, but I'll start with the short part and then go for the long part. So my name is Rob Rulin and I'm a principal at Site Design Group and we are a landscape architecture, planning and architecture firm in Chicago, Illinois. We have team members kind of scattered throughout the United States. And we like to think that we do work throughout the United States as well. We got products all over, but mostly in the Midwest region. And we primarily focus on landscape architecture. So parks, open spaces, green roofs, streets, anything outside the building, that's us. Although we might talk a little bit later about maybe some interior landscapes. I'm sure we'll come into the conversation. And I'm a principal here. And so what I focus on mostly are studio operations and business development and kind of large scale project leadership. And so I get to touch a lot of different fun things based on our portfolio of work, which keeps the job exciting and get to talk about, you know, the good word of landscape architecture. So that's kind of my 32nd day job. But the way I got into this was pretty interesting. So I started in the landscape architecture field when I was 17. You can imagine taking out the trash at a competitor, current competitor in Chicago. And that was, it was quite an interesting experience. My high school, I took a greenhouse class. My high school greenhouse class teacher hooked me up with a internship. So I would start working at noon and then work till 3pm and then come back for, you know, football or other types of practices and things like that. So I did a little kind of this double duty, but they started taking out the Trash. Then they taught me how to draw shadows on plan renderings. And next thing you know, they're teaching me cad. And worked every day either in school or with them until I graduate and start working with them afterwards. And it's been the story since. So, you know, kind of jumped in real early. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that's amazing. That's gotta be earlier than most. Most people. [00:03:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:04] Speaker B: We always ask the question about how people got into lighting because they tend to stumble into it. But landscape architecture, is that something people decide early or how do most people find it? [00:03:16] Speaker C: I think most people find it late, honestly. I think a lot of people find it through other profess or other kind of missteps. Misstep is probably the wrong. It's made a tad harsh. But I think a lot of people go to school for architecture, right? And they're like, I really like this stuff outside. I want to do plazas. Or they go on a cool vacation to Europe and they see the piazzas in Italy, or they go to civil engineering school and they realize that they just want to do more than just drainage and have more control over design. So I think a lot of people find their way into it a little haphazardly or just by trying different things. I was really lucky that my dad publishes a magazine called the Illinois Landscape Contractors association, this magazine, lca. So he's been in the industry for contractors for decades. And so I was kind of exposed to the general profession at an early age and got lucky just with the high school teacher to get me the job. But yeah, it really is interesting how people fall into the profession because it truly is one like architecture, where so much as it's problem solving based, but there is kind of this art yet this kind of practical side of things that go into it. And then there's also this living side of things where plants die. You gotta make sure they don't. Yeah, it's never a guarantee. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Do you think? I feel like your profession is sometimes a little misunderstood, that it's just about plants, is that. [00:04:38] Speaker C: I couldn't agree more. It is so misunderstood. You know, a lot of people do think it's just about plants and that is the core of it. Right. You know, we are hired for that. And if that goes wrong, that's a problem. But we do so much more. You know, pretty much any hardscape surface outside of a building, we're instantly involved with the detailing and the construction of it. Whether that's concrete pavement or pavers or retaining walls or anything like that that also touches on lighting. Right. It touches on stormwater and drainage, but it's so much more. We. We have to help owners and developers and things like that when they work on their projects, interface with the community as well. So that's actually going out and talking to people, because people, the neighbors are going to see these spaces and they're going to interact with them more than any specific building might. And so part of what we do is a lot of community engagement, which, you know, is extremely important in hearing how the public works. But, you know, it's like anything. It's a lot of talking and listening and, you know, we like to joke sometimes. We're mostly there for therapists. You know, we're helping listen to problems and fix them between other consultants and owners. And it's. It's a little bit of everything, but it's so much more than just plants. I would think that plants is actually my weakness. I would say my weakest landscape architectural trade. I do everything else, but plants are my. My Achilles heel. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Well, and I. I think there's also another piece of the work that you all do, which is. There's what it'll be today, but the plants grow. The, the hardscape kind of ages. There's elements of what you all do that takes time to develop, and you. It does. It's not done at, you know, at substantial completion. Right. It is in maintenance. Right. There's these elements of things that you don't have control of. I wonder how, how, how. How do you address that? How do you educate on. On those kind of two pieces, you know, the maintenance side and also the, The. Well, this is what it. Give it time to grow. [00:06:44] Speaker C: Yeah, we do a lot of things. We all start there. So, you know, a lot of times it's interesting when we're doing our initial pitch and showing our designs off, you know, we're showing photos of landscapes that are relatively mature to help kind of show the owner what they're going to get ultimately. But you have to also kind of backtrack and show them. But this is really what you're getting on day one. We actually went through this on our project, really, very recently, where we showed. Here's the tree at the nursery. You know, it's going to be this tall, and this is the size of it, and this will be what you get on day one. It's a very big tree, but it's not going to be like the trees you saw when you were in Spain walking down Las Rampos. Right. It's like, it's not the same Thing. And so we have to somehow sometimes be very deliberate about how we message that and what that horizon looks like. And so oftentimes we'll bring in different horticultural experts on our team to help with that. But it is, it's an education a lot, right? Because people know, I think, building trades usually pretty well when they're doing these types of projects, but landscapes are always a little bit murky and landscapes maintenance is the same way. It's really interesting. We try to visit our projects routinely. I have this project on the south side at Pullman National Monument that I was lucky enough to work on. And I'm down there maybe once a quarter just checking in on the neighborhood, checking in on people I know checking in on the project. Because if we don't, things can go sideways and they can go sideways quick with different plants dying or things taking over or their lack of maintenance. So we try to educate as much as we can by providing maintenance guides. Or even on that project, we did a how to guide or a little. Here are all the plants we planted in each of the little areas in this kind of colorful booklet that they can hand out to maintenance personnel. So they tear out. Oh, this is a weed. No, no, no, that's a native plant. It's this, that and the other. Please don't ruin it. So, yeah, a lot goes into it. [00:08:32] Speaker B: I'm thinking of so many things. First, I'm thinking of this project that we did where we had to put some pretty large luminaires. It was just lighting, some sculpture, large fixtures on some big two, three foot stanchions. And at the beginning it just looked terrible. It looked like such a mistake from a lighting perspective. But now it's been two years and the plants are all grown up around it. And if those lights had been any lower or any smaller, they would have been completely covered over. So anyway, that's just my little story. But I'm. But I'm also thinking on a lighting project, it's usually it looks the best on day one, but that's different for you, I guess, huh? [00:09:16] Speaker C: Yeah, it's funny, I would say for us it's always. We're really excited that first time, once all the grass goes in, I know it sounds bad at all. Grass Antscape Architects but as soon as you get that sod down or the, the, the seed grows in for the grass and the final plants are in it, it just like turns for us. And it looks amazing. But there is that first year where you go out and you look at, back at the photos you from your first year, you've been out after over the, you know, let's say a 10 year span, you'll go back at the first year photos and it seems so puny and it's so delicate and it's just not there yet. And that's where it's really difficult finding that sweet spot, you know, where it's like, what is the best time for your landscape? And I would say frost is usually kind of that two to five year range where maintenance is still really high. Things are growing into their own. But like you still are thinking that long term horizon and what might change. Even when you plant things, you plant, you do this planting design for full sun, partial sun, full shade, partial shade. Trees change and evolve. So you put a plant in and it's under a tree, right? You're like, oh, that's great. It's going to have shade. Well, when it goes in, it's not going to have shade. So how do you plan for that evolution and accept that things change and some of your work might get changed and also 10 years down the line or ripped out on the lower level on the other story. [00:10:38] Speaker B: So when you were talking about going back and visiting projects, do you have that as part of your contract or is that just your passion or labor of love? [00:10:48] Speaker C: You know, yeah, it's hard. We're getting better at it. You know, we've started thinking about some of our kind of more higher profile clients developing like a continuing care program to provide some level of insight for them. So they're just not relying on their contractors for advice or what they're trying to do and getting paid for that. But that's still something that's evolving for us. But it is super important. I think for us. You know, it might not be something where we're getting paid, but it's something that it builds those relationships with those clients so that, that like when they're ready to make changes or they're ready for the next one, they know that we've been there, you know, the whole time and it's just another quick phone call and it's not starting over, you know, with a new relationship for them. [00:11:35] Speaker A: Well, and you've seen what's happened, you've been there and you kind of already done a lot of the legwork inside of your head. So you can say, well, hey, you know, this is, this is what needs to happen here or there and, and it can happen. [00:11:52] Speaker C: Here's what you guys are doing right? Here's what you're doing wrong, you know, we probably wouldn't know it this way. This would be a good way to fix it if you guys want to adjust it later on, that kind of stuff. Yeah, all the time. But it's hard. It's like, I think, with all of us. Right. I'm sure you guys have the same feelings when you go back to your old projects, where it's like, gosh, I wish we didn't accept that Ve or, boy, I wish we could have gotten that light here because it just doesn't work. And it's. Sometimes it's really hard. I feel like, to go back to your project site because I see the. We talk about it internally all the time. All we see are the flaws. [00:12:20] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:20] Speaker C: Right. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Do you ever, like my phone, the pictures on my phone of my projects? I'll be like, oh, yeah, we did that project. Let me find a picture. Oh, these are just pictures of the mistakes. This is the punch list. Never mind. [00:12:34] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:12:35] Speaker A: Well, and I think there's also the memories that happened in your life when you were working on those projects. So we have a project that we're trying to get up on our website right now, and there's a lot of personal things that happened around the morelights world when that project was getting completed. And as we're reviewing the text to go on the website, it's bringing up some rough memories, and not so much about the project, but, like, the personal connection. Right. And so we're kind of. We're wrestling with that a little bit internally right now, but, you know, it's still a beautiful job. But there's these personal feelings that happen during that project. That kind of wrestling. I started totally veering off in some. Oh, crazy. [00:13:26] Speaker C: I'm sure we can all relate. I've had the same things where I mark points in my life when I was doing certain things on certain projects. That's like that one bear project. It just, like, takes over. [00:13:39] Speaker B: I mean, I have, you know, physical memories of walking around job sites being eight months pregnant. So definitely some personal connections to certain projects, positive or negative. Yeah. [00:13:55] Speaker C: Right. [00:13:56] Speaker A: But, Rob, you were talking about one of Lisa's and my favorite subjects, which is sun and shade, which ultimately is light. Light matters. And I wonder, as you know, in your portfolio and the stuff that you guys have done, do you see how working with lighting designers, working with light. I think you guys do some design. Lighting design on certain scales of projects, too. Right? [00:14:27] Speaker C: Nothing like you guys. Come on. I can. I can draw. I know how. I know how far to space things. But it's because I've worked on, like, the one Chicago Park District project, and they use the same light over and over, and I know it needs to be 75ft apart. [00:14:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:43] Speaker C: But yeah, I was to say we work with lighting designers all the time. And it's really interesting because some projects are. The involvement is so much more integrated and just full on, and it's unbelievably fantastic. And some projects, it's very quick. Right. And so some of our most interesting things we've been working on lately are a couple interior landscape projects. Because, like you were saying, sun and shade. We got really no idea when we first started. Like, we're, oh, we're going to put this lighting in this big atrium oculus thing. Oh, cool. Okay. How much daylight do we get? They come back two months later, a month later, they get this amazing daylight analysis study through all the windows. Okay, well, that's not enough. So what are we going to do? And it's really fascinating to work with design is to figure out how far away these lights are going to be. What are the color temperatures? This is a 247 space. How do we provide the correct amount and the right amount of UV light that we need for the plants to grow? When can we turn them off because the plants can't have that light all the time? How far can the lights be positioned above and all these other things to make these spaces sing? And it really is. It's like hand in hand. It's like architecture, landscape, and lighting. Designing these spaces together, which I think is, for me, on this one project, just so much fun. [00:16:03] Speaker A: Rob, you jumped to where we wanted to go. It's awesome. So we've been. We. We know it's interesting. So we're, We're. [00:16:14] Speaker C: We're. [00:16:14] Speaker A: We're almost. We're. We're coming on almost nine months doing this podcast, and in the conversations we've had, we have started to develop this idea that there are four visual professionals in the construction world. Architecture, making the spaces, the interiors. Right. Finishing it out, space arrangement. And I'm not giving each one of these enough space, but just trying to generalize landscape because there has to be some form and function to the exterior, and you have to get into the space or around the space and such, and lighting, because those first, those. Those first three things, you can't see without lighting. And daylight is light. It's still something that has to be designed and controlled. As you said, even interior, you can't have the plants have all this light, whether it's electric or daylight. 24, 7. They cannot be awake 24 7, 365. They are living species. Does it. Does that read for you? Does that play? [00:17:30] Speaker B: Are we missing anybody? You know, is anyone else a visual professional on the project? [00:17:36] Speaker C: I'm sure a couple engineers would have a. Maybe a bone to pick, but I would think that's a very good. Fantastic. For visual professionals for those spaces. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, Everyone needs to work together. And I think that's actually one of the things that in recent years, and especially what I like about working at Site Design Group and how we approach things is we get. We really love to collaborate with lighting, but we also really love collaborating interiors too, because there's so much trend setting that goes on for other spaces or even just in their spaces that we kind of crib off of. And that just helps all of our work be better. Right. We could tell everyone to stay in their lane and don't comment on this, but what's the fun in that, right? They see exterior spaces and how they function. I see interior spaces and how they function. I see cool materials and patterns. You guys see it. You've been to cool bars and nightclubs. I'm sure that this amazingly lit back bar, how they do that. Right. So I think. I don't know. It's all about the collaboration. I think, I think that thinking of those four groups is really great. [00:18:41] Speaker B: And you're. Absolutely. We've had a lot of projects recently. It feels like who really want to blur those lines between the interior and exterior spaces. And so we're doing that somewhat with light and then obviously patterns and materials and finishes and plants, all of that. And then glass on the facades. I feel like all. All four of us have to work collaboratively to make that. To blur that line. [00:19:06] Speaker A: Well. And so I also kind of feel like there's an interesting. An interesting question to ask. Is so landscape architecture. Right. I was told one time that the use of the word architect architecture in a job description has a certain connotation to it. And Dan Coffey was a family friend and I remember asking him, you know, wouldn't it be a lighting architect? I am architecting the lighting together. And he said, absolutely not. The name architect is specific to architect. But I wonder if that. Sorry, where I'm going with this is the challenge we're constantly dealing with. Robin, you've seen this is. Lighting isn't important. Right. It's just this thing. Everybody can do it. But how. How we take the profession and raise it, like ASLA and landscape architecture. Has done landscape architects. I wonder if that. Lighting architect as opposed to lighting designer. And. And I'm wondering, like, what is the problem with that? What is the problem with saying we're lighting architects? [00:20:23] Speaker C: Wow, this is a sticky. Wicked here to talk through. But that's why we're here, right? [00:20:28] Speaker A: Right. That's a whole podcast, right? [00:20:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, well, we see all the time, right? You know, so landscape architecture is a, you know, it's a professionally regulated job, right? Like it's. We have a. We have an act with the state of Illinois. And only landscape architects can call themselves licensed landscape architects can only call themselves landscape architects. And that's very strong definition that we try to hold true to. And architects are the same way. And they're very good at, I think, holding to that. I think one of the tricks with all of that is. Sorry, I lost my train of thoughts on my room over there with these different ways that people like to call the profession. Sorry, I really lost my train. [00:21:08] Speaker A: I thought of architecture, landscape design, landscape architects. It's licensed. There's Bill in the state of Illinois. [00:21:17] Speaker C: So we run into this all the time. We, you know, we're licensed as landscape architects. We call ourselves landscape architects. You'd be amazed, actually. You probably wouldn't be amazed. You probably see it all the time. We're called landscapers, landscape designers. Hey, you. We're constantly called everything landscape architect. Right. And you know, some people in my profession, it drives them crazy. Others, doesn't really bother them, but it isn't an annoyance. It'd be like calling an architect something. I don't know what you could call the. What kind of shortchange nickname you give them that they wouldn't like. But I hear you. I mean, it's kind of just like the same thing with lighting design. And I think that you're right on, is that there is a certain level of professionalism that lighting designers carry, but there should be like an extra level or whether it's a certification or examination or some sort of licensure. I think that would be kind of really interesting to have a kind of overarching professional name because, you know, engineers have professional engineers, right? Or engineering training, I think is always kind of like a. Not a great name for the junior engineers. I think that you're. I think you're totally onto something, right? Because like, even interior design, there's interior architects now too, right. They've even kind of split that. And that's another version. So with all the things that go into lighting design, there should be some Sort of. Maybe regulation's too strong, but there's opportunities, but a differentiator. [00:22:39] Speaker B: There's gotta be something that says how a lighting designer like Avi and IR is different from just anybody who comes along and spaces, the lights or whatever. [00:22:52] Speaker C: It is, can't do that. [00:22:55] Speaker A: Well. And you know, it's interesting to kind of think if we go back to that, you know, four legged table that has the architect and if we use an interior architect, a landscape architect, then you want a lighting architect. [00:23:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:12] Speaker A: And now those four people are architecting the space, whatever that space is. But they have a, they have a connotation attached to them and potentially a licensure and all these things. Yeah. I'm kind of curious as to, you know, and I'm a younger guy, so I'm still learning all of how we got to where we got to, you know, in, in the lighting industry. But you know what, why don't we have that, why don't we go down that path? And as you say, Rob, there are landscape designers, there are landscapers, there are designers that do interiors and there are designers that draw buildings. But you have to have that license to use that name, architect attached to your name. And there is, there's liability that attaches to it. There's all kinds of other things that attach. But, but if you want to, if you want to be on that four legged table, there's, there's something to that name. There's something to that word. [00:24:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And I've always thought, I mean the way that we've approached it in the landscape world is really trying to, it's hard because we get especially pigeonholed into softscapes, trees and plants and things like that. Right. But the way that I think that always rings true with everyone is once you start talking about health, safety and welfare. Right. That's the kind of the cornerstone of licensure. And I would say as in the lighting world, you all do so much that contributes to that. Right. Health is so huge. Right. When you talk about the mental health of people and how they operate within buildings. Right. You talk about safety and get getting from the building, entering, walking around or even just exiting. Right. And everything. It's like you have all of those you contribute in touch to in such a great degree and such a huge thing. Right? Yeah, I think you are right. I mean there is like something needs to be addressed in some ways. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Well, and I think to that point, Rob, like what, what we have as an industry now, there's been a ton of research about health effects. Of light. But we now, within the last two years, Lisa, one year, we have a standard or a recommended practice on what lighting does to normal shift work people. Right. So schools, nine to five, offices, nine to five. Right. We're not talking about off shift, we're not talking about other things. But there's a recomm practice on quantity of light, levels of light, both electric and daylight wavelengths of light, all these things. It has nothing to do with foot candles. It has everything to do with the quality of the light. Right. I guess where I'm going, Lisa, is it's not a foot candle guide. It is the first standard we have as lighting professionals that is all about quality and quantity and what's going on here and what's going on here and the chemicals and everything else. And it's not a. You should have this many foot candles on a tabletop. [00:26:21] Speaker B: Right. For. For actual human health. And yes, this is less than a year old. This is. You heard it first here, Rob. This is brand new stuff. [00:26:29] Speaker C: So cool. [00:26:32] Speaker B: So I think, I think that's, that's just it. Like what we need as a profession, obviously painfully aware, is better advocacy for the importance of the profession. You know, we've. We hit health, safety and welfare. We just aren't licensed. And I know there have been efforts, multiple efforts at creating tests that would certify someone as a lighting designer that I think the hopes were that eventually those would develop into license that would be required by states, but just not there yet. I mean, in a way, it's a very young profession. It's. What are we up to? 150 years? Not even. [00:27:10] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, really, The White City. Right. And Edison's lamps and. Well, yeah, Edison's lamps and. [00:27:20] Speaker C: And it's crazy how much it changes though, right? Like just yearly, the products and the evolution of how spaces are lit from a design aesthetic standpoint, but just at a performance standpoint. Controls and everything else that I don't really think. I imagine it can be daunting sometimes, at least for us. I feel like the end of the landscape architecture. It can be all right, well, trees and shrubs and perennials and some pavement and there's kind of like four or five things and some of them might change a little bit here and there, but it's been relatively the same for 150 years. You guys have had a lot of change. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I thought when I graduated from school that I had learned about lighting design and now I was going to go out and practice. Practice it. But in truth, you know, it has changed. It's completely changed probably three times over the course of my career. Just the, the products that we use are always in flux. Even the recommended amounts of light has changes. You know, just with the, with the science and research. So it's, it's definitely a profession for people who like change. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Well, and, and I think the Rob, to your point, like how you apply it changes and what the community appetites are for light. Right there was, I think the city of Chicago is one of my favorite things. Like, you know, when we had Mayor Daly, it was more light. More light, yes. Not my company, but just put more light and everything will be fine. And, and there was some great research that came out that said, yeah, that has nothing to do with it. And, and glare, you know, and then glare became a conversation. And how much we put all this light, you know, 25 foot candles on a side street in Chicago with a sodium lamp and 80% of it's going in the first floor and second floor of, of homes. [00:29:18] Speaker B: And, and Rob's the ideal person to talk about beneficial darkness. You said it already that the plants need darkness, people need darkness. [00:29:27] Speaker C: By the way, I was just, I'm just so happy we finally brought up high pressure sodium lights because this is like what I was waiting for. But no, you hit the nail right in the head when we were talking earlier about the new standard. Right. Because when you said we have all these new things, they're working into the standard and none of it touches foot candles. I was like, oh my gosh, this is just like changeover in Chicago. You know, growing up around here and living here my entire life, there's nothing like flying into Chicago. And you look down at the street grid at night and you see the orange glow of the street grid. It is like the coolest thing to me. And you see the high pressure sodium lights and they've been phasing them out. Right, of course, right. That makes sense. You need a phase lighting out over time and there's other high performing fixtures. And I get. Just drives me crazy that in the interest of performance and probably increased foot candles, it went LED, but to like some like 6000K, the brightest white thing you can possibly imagine. Light fixture. And it's the color rendering. Everything you see is like totally different and harsh when you walk around at night and it just doesn't have as much charm and warmth, if that makes any sense. [00:30:37] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I followed that very closely. That was right as Rahm was leaving as mayor and they put out a spec for something that was 3500k and. But no cri requirements, no glare cutoff requirements. And it was a local company that made a thing like, basically built a factory to bring in because again, we don't make LEDs or drivers in the United States. This is May 29, 2025. None of that is actually manufactured in the United States right now. Hopefully five, 10 years when these fabs come up in Arizona and such. Anyway, digressing. [00:31:21] Speaker C: Yeah, another story. [00:31:22] Speaker A: But there was no lighting design involved in that. And I wrote a pretty scathing op ed in AIA Chicago magazine that really didn't get anywhere. But I got to tell you, I drive down Lakeshore Drive at night sometimes with sunglasses because the cutoff is so terrible. It comes right into your eye. The. The color temperature on those fixtures is nowhere near what it should be. I think Naomi Miller, Lisa, correct me if I'm wrong, would argue for like 2700-2200k, really warm. [00:32:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I was actually going to get into that. [00:32:04] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry. [00:32:05] Speaker B: We can talk about it in a second. Go ahead with your. [00:32:07] Speaker A: No. And. And so they just like installed all this stuff and they just went for it. And I mean, I always joke that Mayor Daley never wanted to do it because he loved Halloween, so he wanted that, like, orange glow. And I would agree with you there was something to the city of Chicago that orange glow. Definitely agree with getting rid of the sky glow. But yeah, it should have been designed. It should have been thought about. Like, it would have cost nothing for somebody to pick up the phone and say, hey, Avi, can you just look at this real quick? We want to make this a standard. I would have. I would have run down to City hall and helped him out for an hour just to make my city. I mean, I live in Wilmette, so it doesn't matter anymore. But I mean, it's still our, like, core city To. To make it look right. And it's just. It comes back to the nobody knows anything about lighting design. And. And we need to make lighting design bigger. But. Sorry, Lisa, go ahead. [00:33:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's the five Principles of Responsible Outdoor Lighting. Have you heard of this, Rob? [00:33:14] Speaker C: No, I haven't, actually. [00:33:15] Speaker A: I'm actually. [00:33:15] Speaker C: I need to hear this. [00:33:16] Speaker B: Okay, so it's light to protect. The. The five Principles for Responsible Outdoor Lighting. It's put out by IES and then International Dark Sky Association. So the fifth one is actually color. So number one is it should be useful. All light should have a clear purpose. So before you put in or even replace a light, decide if it's needed. So two, once you decide, okay, yes, I need this light. Two, it should be targeted and directed only where it's needed. We're not spraying light everywhere. We're targeting. We're using optics. We're controlling the beam. We're, you know, if we're. If. Well, yeah, they would say, of course, International dark sky would say you don't need to shine anything upward. But if it's shining upward, it's all captured by the whatever, you know, it's illuminating. So. So then number three is low light levels, no brighter than necessary. Use the lowest light level that you can because the surfaces are going to reflect the light, too. So that's. I think that's a mistake sometimes that we think, well, there's no uplight, but if it's bouncing off of a surface, you know, when you're flying into the city at night, you see the roadways. So that is uplight. It's just reflected uplight. [00:34:31] Speaker A: Well, and. Sorry. And I want to add, too, in the winter, when there's snow on the ground in Wilmette, you can see the city of Chicago reflect on the clouds. It's the coolest. I mean, it just glows. And you can also, if you're sailing at night out on the lakefront and, like, it just rained, you can see the glow. It 100% bounces. Even black asphalt reflects light when it's wet. [00:35:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So useful targeted low light levels. And then fourth is controlled using it only when it's useful. So timers, motion detectors, turn it off. And the fifth one, which we already. Which we started with was color. Use warmer lights where possible. And by limiting the shorter wavelength or the blue violet light, it has a lot of impact on birds and trees and people at night. Circadian rhythms, like, all of that, that that color really matters. [00:35:31] Speaker C: I always get so amazed, you know, whenever I go to Florida. Right. And you see all the orange lights by the beaches and how they cut off light fixtures and everything else for nighttime turtle migration and things like that. And it's like, that was very considered. Right. Like. And there's. There seemingly are more species. They probably could have more considerations for them, I'm sure. Right. And I wish we could figure out what those were. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Bringing in all kinds of wildlife consultants. I remember one project where we worked with a herpetologist to get the right light and darkness for the frogs and all the critters. It's fun. [00:36:08] Speaker A: Herpetologist? What's a herpetologist? [00:36:12] Speaker B: I think it was frogs. Frogs and Something else do you guys. [00:36:17] Speaker C: Work a lot with? I'm going to interview you for a second naturalist because one of the things that in Chicago we always hear about. Right. Are migratory bird patterns, especially at night. Right. And trying to turn things off in the skyline to minimize bird strikes and things like that. I'm assuming that factors into a lot of your planning design. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. We were the lighting designers for the arch here in St. Louis and that sits on the Mississippi river, which is the largest bird migration route in North America. So the lights on the arch, our office has designed it three times and each time it gets more and more focused so there's less spill light beyond the arch, which is great. There's also Avi, you were talking about rain and snow. There's a coelometer, which is a device that measures the particulate matter in the air. And if there's too much fog, smog, snow, rain in the air, it will turn the lights off because otherwise it's just getting scattered and distracting to birds. And then the big thing that everyone know, everyone knows the arch lights go off in May and September for about three weeks because of the peak bird migration season. [00:37:30] Speaker C: So that's cool. [00:37:33] Speaker B: It comes up for sure. [00:37:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we talk a lot about up light, dark sky. How do we light this space the way we want it to look? You know, we don't want to put light into the sky. But I is, you know, it's a trade off. Put a light in a tree which becomes A, potentially harmful to the tree, B, massive maintenance as the tree grows, the cord and all those other things. And it feels a little odd versus up lighting. And then I think, Lisa, as you said, optics, I mean, you could buy, you can go over to your local home center and buy an uplight and it's just going to, you know, up into the sky or you can get something with some optics. And I think the other thing that is coming up, and this is back to the conversation of things changing constantly, is we've actually put controls in that it's just a very low light level in the winter months because you don't have the leaves catching all the light versus the summer months where you have much more leafage. So you want to get more light on the underside. And I think also, Lisa, to those, those five important points is I actually have a lot of up lights on my trees at my house. And at 10 o' clock at night, it dims down to almost nothing. So, you know, coming back from a late night focus or, you know, whatever it is. The house still looks nice, but there's no reason to have all of that light. And a dimmer is the, like, cheapest little thing. You're bringing it into the house anyway. So, like, you know, you can get a dimmer at your home center that's automated for 50 bucks. Okay. But that little bit of stewardship you just added is. Is amazing. And for a. For a commercial building, you already have lighting controls going on inside the building, so adding another zone or two outside, it's. It's pretty straightforward to do. And you're not adding a lot of cost. [00:39:42] Speaker C: I think that's one thing that we start to. This is where I think the blind between our groups blurs a little bit sometimes, too. Is that. Over at our office, we've started getting more into cpt. I'm not sure if you're all familiar with that, but that's. That crack prevention through environmental design. And we've been doing. Yeah. [00:39:58] Speaker B: I'm familiar because my sister's a city traffic and civil engineer, so she's taught me all about it. And then we've used it in our work some, too. Yeah. [00:40:08] Speaker C: Yeah. And we. We've been thinking. We've been using it a lot, especially when it comes to planting. Designers designing outdoor spaces. Right. That are safe and easily accessible and everything else. But lighting is such a huge factor into that too. Right. And kind of creating that natural level of surveillance within these spaces. And I just love this idea of thinking about how to utilize controls to help the critters be nice to the plants, not do this crazy light pollution, but also focus on points of egress and entrance into a building and out to the park a lot and making people feel safe. And you can have your cake and eat it, too. I think it. But it all comes down to that cheap dimmer or the building control that you were talking about. Right. And how you pull these spaces together. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm not as familiar with what you guys are talking about, but a space that's designed well. Right. Has a light fixture and a quality of light that aligns with the landscape, which aligns with the architecture, which. [00:41:08] Speaker C: Right. It. [00:41:09] Speaker A: It just feels better. And my. My personal belief is that's something that somebody's not going to want to hang out there to do bad things. They're going to want to hang out there to do fun things and nice things. And it's those spaces that have that concrete pole with the acorn on top that's been around for years. And this is what we do because that's what's awesome. [00:41:34] Speaker B: Well, and also the big floodlight so the police cameras can. That's what CPTED is sort of. It's taking your intuition, Avi, and creating real principles that we can apply to design and evidence based principles. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Because when it's written, somebody will follow it. [00:41:56] Speaker C: Sometimes you have to wade into water. Yeah, right. [00:41:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:00] Speaker C: But you're so right, like how exterior spaces especially can immediately contribute to your feeling of a space, especially with lighting. Right. Like we've all been to those fancy hotels when you pull up at night and you're like, oh yeah, this is something different. Right. It's, it's, you know, I hate to say throw it names but it's like the Four Seasons versus the Marriott. You know what I mean? The drop off experiences are night and day and if it's at night, it's all lighting. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. I was actually at a very high end hotel here in town on the coldest day of Chicago and half of the lights that were out front weren't working. It's like, yeah, this is like 18 months to 2 years old, you know, and it's still city of Chicago. So you got the city of Chicago stuff going on behind but. And you had a beautiful lobby inside, but you had this weird transition that wasn't aligned. And what I also found interesting was the, the lighting, some of it was embedded in the pavers and that wasn't coordinated really well. Whereas you know, picking the size of paver and deciding where that line aligned with the paver system and either making it continuous or, you know, it wasn't mist. Right. That's my. Like we're doing some work at a post. [00:43:33] Speaker B: I didn't know that was a verb. [00:43:35] Speaker A: I don't know. That's. [00:43:36] Speaker C: I like it. Yeah, I like it. [00:43:37] Speaker A: But like, you know, in his buildings, the seam in the stone aligns with the columns which aligns up into the plaster expansion joints. [00:43:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:49] Speaker C: To the white fixtures, to the vents. [00:43:51] Speaker A: Yes. I love that everything, it's like the coolest thing in the world. To the point where you have lights over walls that you don't need lights over the walls. But to maintain this look, you have, you have to do it right and in. And I just, it felt like a moment was lost and you're in this quality, perceived quality of a space. But that, that design relationship between architecture, interiors, lighting and landscape just didn't happen. And it, and it fell hard. [00:44:29] Speaker C: It's, it's like I think the gift and the curse of being a design Professional. Right. It's like we go to these spaces and we can see the beauty, but we see all the inherent flaws immediately as well. And you make snap judgments out of place. It's amazing how oftentimes I go, like where I go golfing or like go to a hotel or go to a restaurant and it's like. So you see something that's often, like, cutting corners. You're cutting a lot of corners. What they're charging me, you. And you see it. Maybe the general public might not see it, but they. Or they might not. They might not fully realize what they're seeing, but they see it. You know, they can sense the quality. They don't know what it is. They can't put their finger on it, but they know. And that's how I feel like, you know, these higher end establishments really need to stay on top of their aesthetics and their brand. [00:45:14] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:45:15] Speaker A: It's funny, I bring this up often, but I had my house appraised once, and when the appraiser was done, he was like, oh, wow, this is really great. Thank you so much. I said, you know, can I pick your brain on something? So did you notice that all the outlets were decora? He said, yeah, I kind of noticed that. I said, did you notice that they were all screwless plates? It's like, yeah, it's like, does that have a value? He said, well, what it does is it doesn't draw your attention away from the detail. Right. Like which direction the screws are. Right. When you start to look around a house and the screws are this way and that way, like, that just gets your attention. When you're in my profession as somebody who's looking for detail to find inherent value. Right. I said, okay, well, is there a dollar value that you can draw to the screwless plates and decorate everything? I said, absolutely not. There's no dollar value. But there's a feeling of quality that's attached to that and a notch up. So when I'm doing my final evaluation and I'm like hemming and hawing, I know that there's been an intention to detail in this property based on those details than something else. And that can shift an appraisal higher. And we all work for projects that ultimately want a higher appraisal to refinance or to sell or whatever it is. And I think that, you know, how we attach those finer details that take a little bit more time up front, but invoke this feeling of higher level quality is huge. [00:46:58] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the game. It's Bringing value to landowners. Right. We're going to make your space more valuable to you, to yourself, the community, everyone. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Design. So I feel like we're reaching this really beautiful crescendo and I want to take us back a step and ask Rob some questions. [00:47:14] Speaker C: Sure. [00:47:14] Speaker B: When we were talking about lights in trees versus lights on trees, I just wanted to hear your opinion of that experiences, good or bad? [00:47:25] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. I have some fun experiences. I have a funny anecdote on it to that too. Tree up lights. I love them. I mean, who doesn't? I think they look cool. They're so much fun. I think tree down lights and mood and moonlight type things are a little odd sometimes. It's like you're competing with, you know, the real moon. And I put some of those in too, and I've adjusted some of them actually. Have a funny story. We got a fixture that was kind of bulky and it came with a strap and we had to strap it to a tree trunk. The only problem was the tree trunk was only like 3 inches in diameter. Right. And you're trying to put this like 15 pound light, this big 2 inch nylon strap and like, is it the Charlie Brown tree? Yeah. What are we doing here? It seems like we're not ready for this. You know, you live and learn, but yeah, I mean, in terms of like just general landscape light, it's really interesting. Kind of like there is a lot of difference between, I think like the commercial world that site design group and myself function in versus more of a residential landscape world in terms of, I've been treating, you know, in terms of picture quality, but even just like design principles and how people light their front yards and everything. Everything else. But yeah, it's. It's very interesting, I think, how amateurs or just general homeowners like to light their yards too. I think it's like, you know, sometimes they can go a little over the top or next thing you know, they're buying those ten dollar solar powered Malibu lights and sticking them along their front path and like, check out my lighting. I'm like, that looks great. Yeah, like that and white lava rock, you know, for your mulch in your plant beds. [00:49:07] Speaker B: So. Well, even. Well, a couple things. One, I did part of my lighting design career in California, and palm trees, those are just like a pole. Those are just begging for lights. [00:49:18] Speaker C: Sure. [00:49:18] Speaker B: I mean, that's not exactly a moonlight. That's just borrowing a pole. That's. [00:49:24] Speaker C: I don't know, they got those harnesses. Right. Or like they got rings. They add the three Lights too. I think those are always really slick on how they, they, they do those. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:49:34] Speaker A: And you can do it better down and then get the little canopy and. [00:49:37] Speaker B: You get the fronds. Yeah. [00:49:38] Speaker A: We actually lit a, a parking lot with existing palm trees by putting the rings, those rings up. And then we lit the parking lot instead of having to put more poles next to the palm trees. Like. [00:49:53] Speaker C: Yeah, less visual clutter. [00:49:54] Speaker B: Right, exactly. [00:49:55] Speaker A: Although we had to add an occupancy sensor per title 24. When somebody moved into the parking lot, the lights had to come up. We weren't allowed to just have them on. So that was interesting putting in, finding an occupancy sensor that we liked to be on a ring on a palm. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Tree in California and the sensor was up on the ring, not. [00:50:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like how was that gonna work? [00:50:22] Speaker B: And yeah, that sounds like a tough problem. And so then I don't think we've talked about this. I've seen different schools of thought on tree up lights. Where should they be? So let's say we've got a big canopy tree. I was originally taught that you want the lights out at the drip line and you're picking up the whole canopy. But then I've also worked with folks who said no, because then you have this floating canopy and you've got to be in close enough to pick up the trunk with the light. Have either of you ever given that much thought? [00:50:50] Speaker C: I'll come in from a horticultural perspective. I always like having a little bit more space around the tree and the tree trunk just because of the size and the quantity of fruits and what you have to do to put an uplight in. So if it's an existing tree, I really prefer it to be further away because the more closer in you get, the more damage you're going to do to root systems. Not like it's not like putting one tree up white. It's going to be the end of the world. But you know, we always need to over engineer things in the commercial world. So we're always putting a concrete basis for these things. There's excavation and you're running conduit and just like the less disturbance for us the better, especially when it comes to the health of the tree. But I don't know, this is like, for me, I, I've seen it done a lot of different ways. I think ultimately what ends up happening is like the worst sin is like it gets installed but no one ever comes back out to actually adjust the aiming of the lights. The contractor just picked Something one day in the middle of the day when he, right, you know, turn the, the knuckle on and said, all right, it's gonna be at a 45. And you're like, that's silly. Because I've always found that like in person mockups, especially on trees are really important because like a lot of trees are different. We draw things one way. But like, you don't really know. You know, you're looking at all these different species, it's almost an impossible task to space them appropriately in the computer before instead of going to solid just like, all right, here's the light. Let's put them 10ft, 5ft, you know, closer. [00:52:11] Speaker A: Further for sure. Yeah. And it totally depends on the tree. Like so again, I always bring things back closer to home because I, I experiment with things constantly around my house. So I have a Siberian elm that has a crazy like Y right at the base. And so I have three lights that are focused. One just kind of goes up the crack and then the other two on the street side light the other two pieces. My maple that's closer to the driveway has three arms. So each arm has a light close to the base of the tree that uplights and it's residential. So I just have 2012 volt buried in the ground. But then in the backyard I have this huge evergreen. You know, Rob and team could probably tell me exactly what it is, but it's, it's, you know, massive. It's as, it's as high as the electric pole. And I have two very high powered lights very close and I just light the trunk and it glows at night. And it's super cool, right? Because it's that the evergreen, the way that this evergreen is set up is it's, you know, you get the twinkle as you go up and you have this solid core that runs all the way up that's lit like a pole, basically, almost like a, like a palm tree kind of thing. So, you know, I think Rob, to your point, it's very much like what, what is the tree? And, and what does it look like? And then, you know, as much as possible. Yeah, we always try concrete or whatever, but you know, if we can get that cord and a stake and the other thing that I've done, I haven't quite figured this out. Maybe Lisa, I can pick your brain on it, but I've always done plastic connector between the stake and the junction box. So if the landscaper hits it, it breaks that little connector as opposed to the light or the stake or anything else. The problem is what I'm learning personally. My boys like to play soccer and I've now replaced three of those in the last four days. And it's really a pain because they gotta pull the wire out and redo the wire nut and everything. So maintenance becomes a challenge. [00:54:36] Speaker B: But is that better than replacing the. [00:54:38] Speaker A: Whole thing, you know, or would this. [00:54:41] Speaker B: Would it have withstood the soccer ball? I don't know. [00:54:43] Speaker A: I don't know. So, you know, but I think that, you know, it comes along to the, the maintenance side of it that the tree, the focus. Right. But yeah, I think really kind of depends. And so around my house and what we've done in different scenarios is it really depends on the species and giving us that flexibility. I mean, man, it's the hardest thing to. Way back to Rob's team and then to the architect and even the contractor is saying it's approximately here. They're like, what? No, we need to know exactly where it goes. Like, yeah, tell me exactly what that tree looks like. We haven't bought it yet. It's the last thing we're going to buy. [00:55:29] Speaker C: Especially when they're running conduit and drilling holes and setting foundations like you said months before they buy the tree and then you got another crew coming out trying to set the tree without damaging it and getting it in the right spot. You know, it's, it's an interesting game to try to help those folks sequence things, but I think for us it's like whenever we have those special premier projects, we are always pushing to have full on lighting mockups and be very deliberate about it because no amount of photometric studies or anything like that is going to tell you how it's actually going to perform until you actually see it at 10 o' clock at night. And of course you're always doing it in the summer, so you're waiting around till 10:30, it's like, is it dark enough yet? [00:56:14] Speaker A: Always in the summer. [00:56:15] Speaker B: I mean, we're gonna complain in the summer because it's too late and we're gonna complain in the winter because it's too cold. [00:56:21] Speaker C: Too cold. It's always something. [00:56:24] Speaker B: But yeah, that's awesome that you push for that mock up because on something organic there's just no, no other way to do it. Right. [00:56:32] Speaker A: And you discover new things sometimes, right? Oh, oh, look at that. Look at how that tree's reacting with. Oh, wow. And, and I, and I, and I would bet in those opportunities too. Lisa, as you were talking about the project that the fixers had these really tall poles. And, you know, day one, it was kind of weird, but then, you know, two days later, I looked amazing. Right? When you're standing there looking at that as a group and having that conversation, I think then the aha moment happens, Right? As opposed to people just. Just looking at drawings. I think many people forget that a lot of our customer base are visual people. They don't know how to read a blueprint. And we are visual people. Right. We want to see it. And having that opportunity to mock it up, talk it through, explain what it's going to look like is pretty huge. So more mock ups, more design professionals, and then all will be well with the world. [00:57:35] Speaker C: We'll get there. You know, I think as long as everyone's talking and working together, the issues will work themselves out. But, yeah, I mean, like I said, I think the collaboration is always the most important part for us and listening to each other. I can't tell you how many lessons I've learned throughout my career talking to lighting designers, lighting reps, manufacturers, different tips and tricks on how to actually light spaces and things to avoid. And it's ever changing, you know, and I think that's something that's been so rewarding for us is like we get to do things that we probably thought about, that we wanted to do, but never really knew how to pull off and really make things like, you know, not just Four Seasons, which is, you know, what we always try to do with our planting design. But I think we all think, right, 24, seven spaces. Right? It's more now into the night, flexible outside. How do you go outside at night and make your spaces useful and not just rely on indoor spaces? [00:58:29] Speaker B: So good stuff. Well, I've learned so much. [00:58:34] Speaker A: Such a great conversation. Rob, I really appreciate your time and joining us and having this great conversation, and I hope our audience enjoys it and I look forward to continuing the conversation. [00:58:51] Speaker C: Of course. Can't wait. Summer's here, so it's time to get a cocktail and enjoy an outdoor patio under some of these wonderful lights. [00:58:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:58:59] Speaker B: Yeah. There have been a lot more outdoor spaces in the last five years or so, so that's exciting. I like it. I like being outside. All right, thanks for joining us, Rob. [00:59:11] Speaker C: Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. [00:59:15] Speaker B: Lighting Matters. As we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time, and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues. [00:59:31] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional IALD lighting designer, such as RBLD or More Lights for your Our next endeavor.