Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting Matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters.
Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. I am one of your co hosts, Lisa Reed with Reed Burkitt Lighting Design.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: And I'm your other co host, Avi Moore with More light.
And today we are so excited to have Ann Kustner with AKLD Lighting Design. Ann, welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:48] Speaker C: Thank you. Happy to be here.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: And we have a amazing sponsor today that we want to thank. That is Lumen Pulse. Lumen Pulse Lighting. Not the group and not on the other brands, just Lumen Pulse.
And you know, I, I've said it in other podcast things, but I mean they really came from a great place. We use a lot of their product, love their early ideas on sustainability which I think we're going to have a little conversation about today.
You know, like their linear product. Right. You had screws, you could get it apart as opposed to the other manufacturers at the time were all throwaway products.
So I thought that was kind of an interesting place where that company started. And sounds like they're doing some interesting things too, which we'll talk about later today. But.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Well, you're hinting.
Yeah, yeah, you're getting ahead at this topic and I'm just, I'm excited to have Anne here who's so passionate about what we're going to talk about today. But yeah, first, Lumen Pulse. I've, I've always had good experiences. Even if I've had a bad experience, they've turned it into a good one and fixed the problem, which is really important.
[00:01:57] Speaker C: Yeah, no, and we've used Lumen Pulse as well and found the same results.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah, they're a great resource. They have great products to make a design you're trying to make happen. Right. They have great tools to make the design work. So glad to have them as a sponsor today.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: When you said that, I was just thinking about this glass elevator at a metro station, this little glass box and we were able to locate a wall mounted product with up and down and glow the inside of the elevator glass, little glass elevator tube. Anyway, yeah, they do. And to have the right product to make it do that.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: They have it and they do Dolly. So I really love them.
You know, Avi, if it's got Dolly, I'm using it pretty much. That's the way it works. Or at least my Team is right.
So. But Ann, tell us about yourself. Give us a little background on how you got into lighting design and akld. Lighting design.
[00:03:05] Speaker C: Well, a long time ago in a land far, far away.
Hi.
I actually have a fine arts and interior design background, but I started at an engineering firm and it's actually originally through photography that I got into lighting.
But yeah, I got, I learned the design aspect and then I got the technical aspect when we were still doing hand calculations and then you know, have brought me here today. So excited to be here. And um, you know, we, we work on a lot of different types of projects and a lot of different areas so from coast to coast and beyond and we deal with hospitality, retail, commercial, high end residential, luxury stuff. And I'm always jazzed to be working on a new project, even if it's just on sustainability. That's the, the unique, you know, nugget of the project as opposed to something that's really sexy.
[00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah, you do beautiful work. I'm always, you know, award winning, wonderful work.
I'm proud to know you and when I see your projects like yeah, she does a good job. I know her.
I wanted to pull on a little bit more of your background because I don't think I know that much about this. So you said it's. So it doesn't sound like you had like educationally you weren't, didn't learn to do these hand calcs that you were doing. Did you learn those on the job.
[00:04:32] Speaker C: In your on the job training? Yeah, yeah. So because it was. I started before the Internet, which is hard to say but with this younger. But we at the, at the engineering firm, fortunately the, the principal of the electrical department was passionate about lighting and taught, taught me the, the formulas on how to calculate the lighting. So you know, one of the, one of the first projects I worked on was relighting the Wisconsin state capitol and that was about 35 years ago. So between hand calculations and a mock up, you know, you, you're able to go, oh yeah, it works. So, so that's, that's how I started. I mean now, today with all these AGI32 and, and dialects and things like that, it's, I mean it's fun, it's easy, you throw things in. It's like it's not as laborious and, but you know, the technical is a huge part of lighting design.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when did you know that it was going to be lighting? Was it while you were at the engineering firm?
[00:05:46] Speaker C: Well, it's interesting. So when I fell out of love for graphic design.
I was living with my sister and she goes, well you get five interior design magazines and one graphic design magazine. Have you thought of going into interiors? And I thought, well, interior designers are a dime a dozen. How would I differentiate myself? So I thought either space planning or lighting. And my dad was an engineer, my grandfather was an architect, so this should not be too, you know, too much of a surprise. And I was always, I was my daddy's girl and it was always down wiring things with him and making things. So I was always, as soon as I heard the band, saw Saturday mornings, I was out of bed. So that's just where I was. And so that's, that was kind of the background. So when I went into the, you know, interior design department, there was only two fighter accredited schools in Wisconsin at the time. And, and one was a mile and a half from where I was. So I, I said how about lighting? And she's like, oh my gosh, go into lighting.
Because. And, and my, my father, the German engineer was like, well, this is in the 80s, you know. Well, either um, this is going to be an amazing career or there's a reason no one's in lighting design. So.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Turns out it was both.
So.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:24] Speaker C: So anyhow, but God bless him, he believed in me. And after being, I started at an engineering firm and then I actually went to be an in house lighting designer at a distributor which was like talk about totally different end but totally amazing education, right? You know, to learn like the whole process of purchasing and markups and all the things that happen behind the scenes and the most stressful job ever. People ask me every once in a while like why don't you sell fixtures? You could make so much money. I'm like, never.
No, ever.
So anyhow, like been there, done that, don't. I don't need that stress in my life. But I was working like 80 hours a week and a big project came and I had worked with this designer before and, and I was already starting to look like this is ridiculous.
And she said, ann, I want to be working with you now and in a year from now. And that was like the magic sentence. And so I went to my father who is amazing and you know, I'm like, dad, how can I take on this project? I'm working 80 hours a week and you know, and they want to work with me, but I'm like burnt out. And he's like, well, why don't you start your own business? Which was the last thing speaking about not wanting to be On a committee, you know, like that was, that was not me. I didn't even think I was smart enough to go to college, quite frankly.
So I'm like my own business. I'm like, dad, you know me, I'm a designer. I don't know taxes, insurance, accounting. And he said, and you go into business for yourself and I will be your business manager. And I think it took me, I know, a whole three seconds and I like, what could go wrong? My dad, my dad's going to help.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Me, you know, backing.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Yeah, so that's how it started over 30 years ago. And so that was, that's kind of how it got started and you know, with hand drafting, you know, at first and wait to cad and then, then by that point I had a team and then the team said, don't cad drawing, stay out of our plan. So, you know, so anyhow, you know, you kind of. It just grows. The first five years it was just me. I will tell you another little story.
My father used to do five and ten year plans. He worked for Cutler Hammer, Eaton Corporation and he used to do the plans. And so I remember hearing on the news radio like somebody having a five year plan and I was like, oh my gosh, this is two years in. And I was like, a five year plan? I don't have a five year plan.
So I call my dad, no joke on the box phone from the car and I, I said, dad, I don't have a five year plan. And I could just hear the smile on his face and he's like, okay. He goes, what do you want to be doing in five years from now that you're not doing today? And I'm like thinking really hard and I'm like nothing. And he goes, and there's your five year plan.
So, so anyhow, but as things went on, you know, people came, you know, so we had our first employee after five years, our second employee after 10 years and you kind of go on and things kind of. I never expected to have the team that I have. I always thought I'd be kind of a one man band. But you know, life changes and things happen and you know, you end up where you end up. And we have like an amazing, amazing team that people that I get to work with on a daily basis that make me very excited and inspire me and are hard working and we're all moving in the same direction. So like right now, God is good, like things are, things are amazing and fun and that's, that's, that, that's the bottom line is like, I just want to have fun. I love that. And that's why I'm here with you guys.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: Yeah. No, and so, Anne, with. With where you've gotten and you've been now on the speaking tour.
[00:12:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Talking a lot about sustainability. I. I saw your presentation in New York at Legucation.
By the time this is released, you will have spoken at Light Fair.
I'm curious how many people show up to Light Fair, and I'm curious how Light Fair goes.
I'm also very curious what happens with your presentation at lightfair, because I think it is very poignant topic.
Do you want to maybe start telling us a little bit about, like, the precipice of where you got interested in. In this sustainability idea and, like, unpack the word sustainability as you're going after it. Right. Like, it's. It's not lead, it's something else.
[00:12:55] Speaker C: Well, and we started calling it sustainability, but then sustainability is a lot of different things. Right. On a lot of different levels. And it. At the root, it is sustainability. But we started calling it maintainability, because even though you can have a fixture that is, you know, fits through all of the hoops of. Of, you know, well, building, living, building challenge, you know, all these things, if you have to throw it away in seven years because you can't maintain it, like, why did you go through all those hoops?
Yeah. And actually, now that I say it out loud, we should be looking at maybe talking about, you know, well, building and a pedal. And part of the pedal means that you don't have to dispose of the fixture when it, you know, has, you know, because it can't be. The LEDs can't be changed or the drivers can't be changed, and maybe we.
Inspiring already. So it. It started actually with projects that were coming back to us that had fixtures going out. This is after five years. Everybody is hung up on the warranty. Well, what about the warranty? It's like, yeah, but I want this fixture to last 30 years. I mean, if it's in higher ed, if it's at an airport, if it's at a school, if it's at a campus, I mean, like a corporate campus, they don't want it to last five or 10 years. They want it to last like, this is an investment.
[00:14:29] Speaker B: And I mean, if we go back to the beginnings of led, everyone was promoting these products that last forever. You know, they were selling this story that they last 30 years. Right.
[00:14:42] Speaker C: Oh, that's what we were. No, I think I remember forever. So forever, in fact, no joke. I talked with an architect a month ago and she, I was talking about, like, how long do they want this project to last? And she's like.
And she's like, well, I'm not sure. Let me ask the client. I'm like, okay. And she goes, why do you ask? I'm like, you know, because there's a life cycle and if they're on 24 7, which in this place they would be, then, you know, there's. If, you know, they're. They don't necessarily last that long. And she's like, wait, what? LEDs don't last forever? And I'm like, that must have been some headline on a USA Today, you know, sometime a long time ago. But, you know, that's what people think. They think leds last forever. And the manufacturers, some of them, quite frankly, have designed their fixtures as if they lasted forever. Like, math went out the window. Like, like the life of an led, the life of a driver. Oh, no, what is that? You know, but it's like, do the math. It doesn't last as long as you think. For instance, a 50,000 hour fixture, if it's on 24 7, like any, you know, many municipal or hospitals or whatever, you know, it won't even last six years. And so people, it's like, oh, there, you know, like there's a wake up call.
And, and so during this, and the, like this speaking tour, it started last fall at the I up in Banff, and we, so we started going through this and let me actually back up more than that. So it, it started happening to us. Our clients were saying, hey, this isn't working anymore. How can I fix this?
And what I realized, like, holy smokes, you know, like, how are we gonna fix this? How can these be fixed? And my, you know, like, what kind of fee do I get on fixing one of my projects? Like zero.
So it's like, I don't want to lose money. I'm. I know I'm like, I like doing charity and things like that, but it's like, no, like, I can't get a. Like I want to maintain. We're designers, right? You know, we're not necessarily facilities managers, you know, like, so we want to make something that's going to last a long time and, and minimal or easy maintenance.
So that's a, that's a big deal to us. And we are actually starting to ask our clients now, how long do you want this to last? And they have never heard that before.
Never heard that before.
So so that's kind of how this started. And so, and even. And I'm going to step back a little far further. Avi, you and I were on the next gen luminaire discussion, you know, a dozen years ago, and we were asking about life at that point.
And the point is, is that that was always part of our vocabulary, but with the energy codes coming and it was like, okay, everybody's drinking the juice on the LEDs. Let's just go ahead and like, we're all there, you know, thinking that the manufacturers would also be thinking, oh, this is not going to last forever. We better make sure that this is tangible. So that's, that's how this got started. Is, you know, then, then on the speaking tour of things, Andrea was having problems with schools in Texas and their fixtures, their driverless fixtures started flickering. And these schools don't have electricians on staff.
Like, I mean, can you imagine? And Avi, I know your, your son's school had the same thing with flickering lights. It's like, who. Like, it's hard enough to get these kids attention to have flickering lights. Like, it would drive me nuts.
So she actually thought maybe I should talk about this. So she actually reached out to Rachel Fitzgerald from Stantec in Denver and said, hey, Rachel, are you interested? Rachel's like, you know, flat out, no. Yep, not interested.
Until like a week or two later she got a call from her client from five to six weeks earlier. And they were like, hey, we're having problems of the, with our office fixtures and having a number of fixtures going out and they had a 10 year lease. They didn't.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: I'm gonna, I'm gonna clarify because she, she got this call right after she had told Andrea no.
[00:19:19] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: And it was a client. I just wanna make sure because I think, I think you said five to six years earlier. Is that what it was? Yes. Okay.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: The project that she had designed five to six years earlier. And thank you, that's happened. No, no, no, no, no.
And so then she gave Andrea call and she's like, okay, I'm in.
And then Andrea had remembered, you know, just the, the next gen or luminaires and how I must have stood out, harping on sustain, you know, like, how is this going to be changed? How is this going to be repaired? How are you going to fix that?
So, so that's kind of how that that started.
And so what we did was we put a survey monkey out to.
Because it was at the IALD conference, we sent it out to the LIRC members which are the manufacturers that belong to the LARC, which is part of the ILD, and put out, you know, just a questionnaire, eight to 10 questions, and just asking them, you know, about a number of these types of questions. Do you make this maintainable? You know, like, what are your thoughts on this? Do you know the life?
This is my favorite question. Do you know how long your drivers last?
Everyone 100% said yes until you ask them. And then you're like, okay, how long do they last?
And they're like, yeah, I don't know.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: So they thought they knew.
[00:20:53] Speaker C: Yeah, they thought they know or somebody there knows. So that was also, you know, just eye opening. So we, what we found out and then we interviewed them. We interviewed a number of, each of us individually, took a handful of manufacturers and I asked them about this and the, the one surprising comment that I consistently heard was, well, we could do that. Oh, yeah. It wasn't. We're doing that.
We're looking into it. We're on it.
We've, we've designed it that way for years. And some of them have, they're like, what? Other people aren't doing that? And I'm like, so. And then, you know, I just remember one person said, but we're always trying to design, you know, something brighter, smaller, sexier, whatever. And it's like, yeah, you know, but, you know, so it was very interesting hearing manufacturers and their wide array of answers, you know, on this. And so I think it's, it was interesting when we gave the talk, actually, it wasn't in Banff, it was down in San Diego. My bad. I just remember we were sitting there. Yeah, we were sitting in, you know, these ballroom things looking up and they have 12 inch diameter down lights, you know, clearly there for 30 years. You know, it's like people, you know, people want fixtures to last longer than five to 10 years.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:21] Speaker C: And we even got a call in our Denver office on somebody, a project we hadn't done, but it was, it was a mixed use building.
But in the public areas, someone had put linear LEDs and this, that and the other thing. And, and the facilities manager's like, how sustainable is this? That I have to have an electrician come every other month to fix something in this huge truck. You know, where's the, where's the carbon footprint in all this? When I have all of these things, you know, happening? So I think it's, it's a, it's a bigger thing. And I feel that it's this tidal wave, maybe tsunami of maintenance that we are going to have to address in these next number of years because of, because of that.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Right. So I was super inspired after hearing your presentation to, to be very deliberate. Every manufacturer who came in after that, I don't, I would ask sometimes, but I've been very deliberate since then to ask about, you know, modularity and maintainability and what they have. So I'm curious if you could tell me what questions do you ask for manufacturers when they come to your office about that?
[00:23:39] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I asked them, I asked them, you know, like, how do you. Can we change this up? Can we. If I'm really interested, if I'm not really interested with some, you know how that goes. The more interested I am.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Thanks for lunch. Yeah.
[00:23:54] Speaker C: The deeper I, you know, like I become a pit bull. But it's like, well, how, how can I change this out?
And how can I specify this led, you know, chipper, you know, disc or whatever?
Because I want to be able to. So, you know, I want to be able for my client to purchase a number of those up front along with drivers that will, will work for that.
So I'm asking, how do you do it? And I actually usually make them do it right there, you know, like, okay. And then a lot of, you know, some of them are like, oh my gosh, I know you can do it. They told me you can do it. I can't fake. Figure it out how to do it. I'm like, well, let's figure it out. And if you, you know, it sits.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: On my desk, how do you get it open? I don't want them to do it. I want to do it myself and open it and then lose all the parts. I mean, just kind of bringing it back just for the audience at large. Right. What we're really kind of getting into is and an ngl back in the day, we were all very much about this light bulb you could unscrew or a fluorescent lamp you could unplug and a ballast in the fluorescent world that you could get to, or metal halide lamp you unscrewed, ballast you could replace. And all of a sudden we were seeing, as the NGL and lighting designers, we were seeing these things that, wait, there's circuit boards and, and drivers that were on board or whatever it may be and things you couldn't replace in service. And as you were saying, right. Thirty years later, the ballroom we were just in, actually Casey and I were in a ballroom here locally that has a 50 year old lighting control system. We've never seen that system ever anywhere. It still functions, but now they're just getting to a point where it's time to upgrade it. Right.
So. And we'll talk about controls as well. But this idea that wait, it's going to last forever so you don't have to service, it got lost. And the NGL group, and you were part of that group a couple of times, we had lots of different lighting designers. We literally took fixtures apart and the fixtures that ended up getting listed by NGL typically had some kind of service methodology. Right. How do you get to the driver? How do you replace the LED array?
And I, and I think that that has continued on in some cases.
I think each one of us have different ways of approaching it, but there's a lot of work out there that hasn't had that. And, and, and, and we have this other maintainability issue right now in the market too, which is you can't get fluorescent lamps and metal halide lamps anymore either.
So not only are is this topic so important based on LED selections, but also finding that methodology for the old fluorescent stuff, like eight years ago, fluorescent projects, it's done, it's gone. We're actually working on a school right now. Eight year old school. They can't turn the lights on in the classrooms because the lighting control system's not manufactured anymore. And they have cleared out ebay of parts and they've also cleared out ebay of lamps and ballasts. And this is all fluorescent stuff. Right. So now you're talking about close to $1 million renovation of an eight year old school because you can't get parts.
[00:27:31] Speaker C: Yeah, that's, that's another thing. You know, Lisa, kind of going back to what you were asking, like, we are, we are looking at manufacturers that will be around, you know, I mean, when, and I'm of course, is this 100 of the product? No. You know, but is this 80% of the product? Yes. You know, we want to know will this down light manufacturer be around and can we, will we be able to get parts for it? I mean, on some of our more significant projects, like we're looking at things like that now will there be an LED decorative something that you're like, okay, we're gonna have to change that out or, you know, I'm not, I'm not as concerned on some of those things, but some of the workhorse fixtures that, that are, we're using on projects. Yeah, you want to be able to, in. And this is how we sleep at night. You know, like, we want to make sure that these will be maintainable. Or at least educate our clients so that they understand, okay, this is the lifespan. This is why, I mean, we can't call it attic stock anymore. I think we need to come up with a new name. Because attic stock, like when things get ve, like, I will take the attic stock office. Like, you can't afford to, to do that anymore because that might not be able to be made ever again. So like, you need it.
And I think that's one of the other things that we're, that's a conundrum is, you know, making sure we have a part number for those pieces and a part number for the drivers. And I would love a driver manufacturer to come out with a ten thousand or a hundred thousand hour driver. I would pay more for it. I could hold a spec. I think that's just it. If we could, we could hold specs if we have maintainability, if we can tell the client, you will be able to maintain this for, for 20 years and beyond.
If you hold, if you have this manufacturer, you know, then people are like, oh, that makes sense. And of course it depends on the project. If it's retail, forget about it. If it's hospitality, forget about. Like, we really don't care about that necessarily. Maybe in the hallways. Yes. Because they'll keep that little longer than the room refresh or something. But you know, there's, it really depends on the project. But these are really important things that, that manufacturers really need to realize that we could hold their spec if they did things like this. We could say like, nope, you know, this is it. One name spec.
[00:30:10] Speaker A: Well, and I think it's also important to bring it back to lighting designers. Right. And lighting matters, which is the fact that we are thinking of these things and questioning these things and asking these questions. I think, Lisa, you were asking Ann this. I know for morelights we have a written document that is all the requirements of a particular product that we require in writing as a downloadable PDF before we will look at the product.
And line number three or four. In it is the maintenance manual with part numbers for, for each of the parts. And that includes screws, that includes LED boards, wiring, harnesses, drivers, and also the methodology required to maintain that because, you know, three different downlights from our Lumen Pulse friends who are sponsors today, each one might have a slightly different methodology on how to maintain it. But we want to know what that is. If you want to show us the new fancy thing. And we won't even look at a product in our office without this information.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds great. I, I was smiling because I was trying to remember how many guests I've heard say, we want to specify brands that we know will be around in 10, 20, 50 years.
And, and I was just thinking, yes, that's the difference that a lighting designer is going to make. We're going to be cautious about who we put on your project.
[00:31:45] Speaker C: Well, and it, you know, I tell my clients too, it's, I usually pick up my cell phone and say, I say, you know what, you know, these LEDs, they're electronics, they're like a computer and you know, they're only going to last, you know, like so long. And today we're putting in the best computer. You need a computer today. You know, next year it's going to be even better. But today you need that computer, you're buying that computer. You know that there is some sort of life to it. So we do like this is, we can't be miracle workers per se, but at the same time we can go in there very thoughtfully and really try to be a team member and understand, you know, for, for the facilities or whoever is maintaining it. Like we want to be your partner with that. And maybe it's vanity, maybe we just want our designs to last longer and prettier. But you know, I think it's a, it's kind of a win, win situation. But the one, the one thing that I thought was very interesting that I wouldn't have thought because we've just talked, We've talked about LEDs and drivers, but the lensing. I was in an airport recently.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: Coming.
[00:32:53] Speaker C: Off the plane, so in an area that not like, you know, kind of a, not everybody sees is not like high traffic area. But I looked up, I could not believe how many lenses were off of these fixtures. And, and that's one of the things that I've heard from manufacturers as well is that, you know, like, okay, yeah, we have, have attic stock for like on our most popular lensing, you know, for maybe 10 years.
But if you want a 20, 30, 50 year solution, like lensing is another thing that a lot of people haven't said, oh, we should backstock that, you know, and it's, and I mean if so those are, those are other things. I, I'm going to interject a story here that just came to me a couple of weeks ago.
Well, we were working on a seminary up in Wisconsin. It's a 160-year-old actually, 165-year-old seminary. But the building we're working on is 160 years old. And they told. So I Asked him, you know, how long do you want this like remodel to go? And they're like, oh, 60, 65 years. I was like, okay. And I said, you realize that the product is going to be more expensive that we put in so that it will be able to be made. You know, it's a, it's a robust. And they're like, yes, we understand.
I get that for a seminary. Fast forward. There's a Silicon Valley manufacturer or. Yeah, well, they are a manufacturer, but a business that we all know of. And I was talking to one of designers of, from a manufacturer. They had designed over 50 miles of LEDs for that manufacturer 10 years ago. And now 10 years later, they are replacing, you know, they're taking the product and replacing it. And he's saying, we originally taped the LEDs onto the heat sink and now we are mechanically fastening them because we know the next time around it's going to be a lot easier if we have a mechanical connection. And I said, how did they say how long that they plan to use this building? And he said, 60 years, no joke.
So we have somebody making something like this that's kind of disposable after six or seven years, wanting their building, even though they're super, super duper Techy to last 60 years.
So they own the building. So I thought that that was very interesting. I expected it from a seminary. I did not expect it from a Silicon Valley manufacturer. So these are things that, you know, like we need to think about for our clients and say, okay, because then we can say, yeah, we need a more expensive fixture that's going to last longer. And they get it, they get it. But I think again, holding a spec, because I know that's what manufacturers want to hear, like, how can I hold a spec? How can I stay on it? But I think one of the things is that I, that I say in the talk that you've heard, like, I want it to be maintainable. I would love, like instead of IP65 sticker, they also have like a little round one that says with an M on it that's maintainable. Like this is a fixture that we support.
You can change.
We will have this stock or we can, we can at least give you the part numbers for this led and you know, for the future, starting this rating system.
[00:36:33] Speaker A: Right. It sounds like a great IES recommended practice.
Captive screws and you know, level of serviceability.
Because I was thinking about it. I mean, a lot of what we have done is not only look to products that are maintainable but also step our foot a little bit into the means and methods and describe specifically how we expect the method of tape light to be installed. Right. A solder point connection with service loop so that solder wire can get cut off or whatever. Because we don't see a way of using a half inch by half inch tape extrusion in a cabinet some other way. Right. Like at least it's got a solder connection you could get to with a remote driver. But we are detailing that installation methodology. We're not asking the tape light manufacturer to do that. We're saying, hey, contractor, this is how you have to do it. Because somebody's going to have to service it at some point. Right, Right.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: I mean, that all impacts the serviceability. Yeah.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: And Anne, you said it. And it's something I say all the time.
When you buy 100 computers, one of them's most likely gonna be a dud. That just happens. We're buying on a particular project thousands of chips and we're expecting all thousand of them to work perfectly the first time.
I mean, I have never had a project that every single fixture showed up right. Installed and functional from the factory. Not an installation issue. And I think we actually give our contractors a little too much grief. They most of the time do a great job. The factories actually create a lot of challenges too.
And, and you know, if you can't service it, then you can't even finish the job up front. Right. We're not even talking about maintenance in five years. We're talking about just opening the job next week when a fish is not working, like going to rip out the drywall. I mean that's, that's crazy.
[00:38:45] Speaker C: And that's a good point. And, and I guess because a lot of the fixtures that we work on are more, you know, mudded in specialty ceilings, you know, that's, that's where I'm going. A laying grid ceiling. Okay. Not such a big deal. Even a cove. Not that I want to rip out everything and all that, but it's like some of these things are easier, easier to maintain.
I think too. When you were saying that, I was thinking, you know, some of the, some of the more gnarly maintainable fixtures that are really in high ceilings and etc, we're remoting the drivers. So like, let's make it easy for them to maintain. I'm not going to do the whole project with remote drivers, but like let's make it easy so that if they, you know, in this mechanical room up close to the. And on the Third floor that we can, you know, we can remote the drivers so that when it goes out, we can change it out.
Nobody even knows the next day that it, you know, is even out. So, you know, really trying to think thoughtfully through those areas of like, okay, where what makes sense, you know.
[00:39:54] Speaker A: And you were talking a lot about drivers being kind of one of the biggest problems.
I find it interesting that you're starting to see this move towards low voltage in or sorry, DC input for drivers.
My understanding, and I am no driver expert, but my understanding is 50% of the driver. And the thing that is the biggest failure point is all the voltage modification from 120 here in the states or 277 or 240 down to 57v dc or 24v dc. I mean half the driver is just doing that. The other half of the driver is doing that last bit of 57 and how many milliamps. And again, lighting designer, not electrical engineer. But if you were to distribute DC now you have a driver that has far less components that are really only made for the lighting industry and are the failure point. And now you are just doing small DC modification. And my understanding is those drivers you are starting to see the manufacturer say 10, 20, 30 years because it's a microprocessor after that. I mean you're dealing with tiny little voltages.
And I wonder if that.
Starting to think about that. And again, this isn't poe. I'm not talking about.
[00:41:20] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: Talking about DC input.
That's a future, right? That, that's a potential option, but it still doesn't affect the maintainability. You still got to get to the driver. You still got to be able to pull it out of the ceiling.
[00:41:34] Speaker C: Yeah, but I love the people like thinking outside the box like that. And how could. Maybe there's a hybrid of something that lasts for more than 50,000 hours. And I think, you know, just like, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. We need, we need this like you could corner the market if you could find something that was a hundred thousand I would pay for and my client would pay for a hundred, you know, 100, you know, some a driver that would last twice as long. And I could, you know, we have on our. What kind of driver dimming to 5%. 1%. 0.1%. You're like, I want something that's like, this one lasts 50000 hours. This one lasts a hundred thousand hours. You're like, I would do a hundred thousand hours all day long. So I think I mean, I just go back to my favorite years of halogen, when, you know, GE made their constant color 6,000 hours, you know, all day long. I would have. They last longer than LEDs, you know, like, if they're on a lighting control system, you know, like. So I would really think that we need. We need people to start asking the driver manufacturers, you know, you know, kind of roll your sleeves up and give us something better. And. And on that note, I'm going to ask you guys a question, because I have heard both answers, and I still haven't gotten to the bottom of it. But when I have brought up, oh, I would like to put drivers on the shelf, you know, for attic stock.
I've heard people say both ways, oh, they lose their shelf life.
The way they say it, like, oh, if you do it, you're losing the shelf life of the driver, as if it's like a battery. And I've heard of others that say, oh, yeah, no, that was for ballast. That's not for this. But I would like to hear if you guys know the answer to that.
[00:43:29] Speaker A: Lisa, you want to go? Or.
[00:43:31] Speaker B: I will say, I don't know the answer. I'm not. I'm not your source for the answer, but Avi might. He knows all these things.
[00:43:37] Speaker A: So we did a big school in Wisconsin, so I have to tell a story to answer your question. We did a big school in Wisconsin, Lots of different products in different places. It's all during COVID So we had all kinds of issues of fabrication, yada, yada. And I had one of my team members reach out to all the manufacturers and get a list of drivers on the job.
Like, I want to know what every fixture type. I want the full driver model number.
And what we discovered in the process is that of the maybe 30, 40 different manufacturers, 40 different fixture types on the job, there were seven drivers in all of those different fixtures, but every single one was programmed differently.
And then I did some more digging, asking the driver manufacturer, hey, so can we just buy this these drivers and teach the client how to program them so that when a driver goes out, they could program it specifically for that location? They said no. And there's two issues to that. Number one, if they program it wrong, they'll fry the LEDs. And then whose response? Number two, are they going to remember how to do it? It is just not something that we're willing to do. We are willing to have a local distributor set up and teach them and blah, blah, blah. And so. And then the other piece that came from that job was. Yeah, but how does a customer actually know how to get back into that light fixture to get to that driver, to know what driver it is? So we, to get to your question, we've actually moved beyond that and said no parts and pieces on the shelf fixtures.
Spare fixtures. And the idea behind it is, honestly came from me trying to replace some drivers in my own trimless down lights in my house. I have no idea how to get into it. And so I know smart enough, I'm gonna go online and I'm gonna try and figure out what the part number is. I don't even know what the part numbers are. The downlights that are in my house.
And then I'm going to try and find the manual, and then I'm going to kind of read the manual, which, by the way, no manual ever on any light fixture, let alone, like, how to build anything you get from IKEA is perfect. Right.
And I'm going to do all that. No, I want a spare fixture that I can literally put on the bench, upside down, down light, and I can break it getting to the driver, but I know how to pull it apart. I have all the spare parts. And now what I could do is, oh, the driver's bad. Okay. I could take the driver out of the old fixt fixture. I can put it in the one in my ceiling, throw that broken driver back into that downlight, put it back in the box, and send it to the factory to say, hey, I need a new fixture because your one's broken within that five year warranty or even longer. Right. And. And it goes to your lens. Well, lens is in that fixture because it's a spare LED array. It's there. Wiring harness. I lose a thumb screw, I lose a nut. I have a total complete thing. And so the answer your question, I have no idea. But we've moved to this point of having a total spare because then it'll work, then the LED will work and all that. And the other thing I'll throw out there too, is we, we know our audience may not.
LEDs fade over time. So the other reason that I am obsessed with dolly controls is that I can tweak that one fixture specifically in a space that's five years old. I can go into that driver via the dolly protocol and say, your max is now 95, which happens to be 100% to everybody else. But now it will dim and look like everything else. I know the LEDs are aligned binning. I know the driver is dimming this. I know everything about that so that's, that's what we've done. And in 10 year old restaurant in Chicago still we, I think we've changed four LED arrays and four drivers in a New York based previous sponsor of the podcast product. But we haven't changed anything else. And it still functions.
And you know that that's the key, right? That's the key to specification and the key to like looking at that product and having the parts. So that's. So I don't. It's not an answer to your driver question, but I think it's an answer to what do we tell a customer what to put on their shelves? Spare fixtures.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:48:26] Speaker A: And we require the spare fixture quantities as part of submittal and will reject submittals outright without a full quantity list of spares in the submittal.
[00:48:41] Speaker C: So what was that, Lisa?
[00:48:44] Speaker B: I said I have so many questions, so go ahead.
[00:48:47] Speaker C: Like, okay, so let's say you have 300 fixtures or a thousand fixtures, whatever it is, like are you putting a percentage of like, okay, you should have 3% spare?
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So that, that is the ultimate challenge. And what we are really trying to force is a conversation with the main maintenance departments.
I think all three of us are involved in large airport projects and getting to those individuals is like pulling teeth. But they are the most important people in that conversation.
On the school, we had the maintenance gentleman and he said, look, I, I don't have a lot of room, so let's, let's go line by line and let's look at how big the boxes are. I mean literally having conversations with, with Lumen Pulse and other manufacturers saying how big is your box? Okay, so we want like three of those, but can you do separate packaging? So, because I don't need all the brackets and I don't need all that other stuff because it's gonna be above the drywall. But I want the housing and the driver and LED like all in a box.
So it really depends. And you are also saying the challenge becomes linear fixtures that are like 80ft long.
What do you do for spares there? And we have, it really depends on the manufacturer and how they are manufacturing the product, on whether it's four foot systems, eight foot systems, two foot systems, how long the lensing is. But we want a system that is most common, that you have the lens, the led, the driver, everything associated. So you can part that thing in the box to what's in the space.
[00:50:38] Speaker B: So earlier Ann said, and it sounds like you've got, you know, certainly when you get facilities folks involved, they're going to be interested in spares and maintenance and maintainability.
You know, you bump up against the two different buckets, right? The, the, the new project bucket and then the maintenance bucket. And it's not always the same group of people. But to Anne's comment earlier about getting spare anything on a job, it gets beat out. Do you have a way that you get around that with your very strict spare fixture requirements?
[00:51:12] Speaker A: It's part of our budgeting from top to bottom. So when we're budgeting a job, we have it included.
And I mean, I've had conversations with both of you, like, we don't, we don't experience ve like a lot of people because our methodology on pricing and budgeting and such and so it's just part of the job. The factories that we work with know they have to include it. The rep agencies we work with know we're going to have to include it. And if they don't, then they're going to end up eating it. We actually have a job right now that the, the contractor pulled it out and the maintenance team and the owner and everybody else is asking, yeah, where is all that? Because again, it comes back to, I mean, this project is a space that we all experience probably on a weekly basis.
They, they're notorious for not maintaining because they don't have the parts or the people or the time. Okay, but if you create a system that they can, then there's no then. Then the higher ups can say, wait, wait, how come you're not maintaining this? You have all the parts.
[00:52:25] Speaker C: So I think that's key though, Avi, is to get it in at the beginning. You cannot, I mean, I think that's one thing we try to do, try is to get all the accessories, lenses, extra lenses, all that upfront in our initial, like, out for pricing lighting fixtures, schedule, because nobody wants to pay for, like, what do you mean you need some different optics? You know, like, no, Although we were just on a project the other day and we're like, where are all the optics that you know? Like, like, oh, no, this is just what they gave us. I'm like, yeah, I'm sure it is. It's probably in some garbage dumpster somewhere. So, but I think you need to get it up front, like, you know, and again, education just so that the client knows. So I was on a call yesterday, it was for lighting control stuff. And, and we get this, like, what, this went up this much, you know, and part of. So we Talked with the AV contractor and you know, sure enough, 30% of what it went up was attic stock for them. It's a, it's a very remote project.
So the AV contractor is like, I don't want to have to send a guy up there, go, oh, this is wrong. Come back, order it, wait for it to get ordered. Oh yeah, go way up into this remote project. So he wanted to have things on the shelf. I said, you have to tell the client, like this is what you did. Because he thinks there were ads, you know, at the end of a project, like, why is this inflating so much?
But I mean, once the client understands why that was added, it'll be like, oh yeah, that makes sense, you know, but I think it's education to the client as well on those types of things. Like we need to put this in there for this to last, you know, for, for you to be kind of in a way, effort for. You don't have to worry about this because you have the parts.
[00:54:19] Speaker A: Well, and you mentioned controls. It's really important also to remember that and write into your specs and owners out there.
You own the programming.
You want raw source code of the programming that's in your home, in your office, whatever it is, like you want to own that code, you're paying for it. You should own, should be on a USB stick that you can then hire somebody else if you want to. It's really important. And also being mindful of, you know, spare parts, spare pieces, keypads, dimmer modules, dolly modules, whatever it may be. I mean, even if you have a dolly system, what fixtures are tied to what groups to tied to what universes, they're no longer loops.
But you know, having all that information because there will be something. These are 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 100 year old projects and somebody's got to figure it out and you got to have it.
[00:55:29] Speaker B: And Carla, my friend, you all know, was just so excited showing me last night I got new buttons for my keypad in my kitchen. The old buttons were disintegrating, like things you don't think about. They're 20 years old. And she needed new buttons. So it's true.
[00:55:46] Speaker C: And I think too we're looking at lighting controls in a different way and manufacturers in a different way because we've worked on, you know, we've been around and long enough to see projects that it's like, okay, we have to, to rip out the entire control system. And I'm like, yeah, no, like, no, I don't. I don't think you need to spend another six figures, you know, to do that. Like how logical is that? You know when you go into one of the old buildings and you start still can flip on a switch.
Like who, who's, who's that okay by. So we are looking at lighting control manufacturers that can, you know, make what they have work that in simple pieces and parts are making it backwards compatible. You know, future thinking, but backwards compatible. And it's like life is too short to have to throw this away. And again, where's the sustainability in that?
Where is it? Like everybody's so worried about being green, green, green and saving electricity and I'm all there. But if you have to throw this stuff away in a landfill, like some of the stuff you can recycle, granted, but some of this you just can't. And like after seven years it just doesn't, it just doesn't make sense. And you know, I don't care if it's recycled aluminum, like if it's only lasting for seven years, whatever. And so part of the talk I'm giving him, like, see this medium screw base, it looks really sexy to me. Like, it's like, it looks amazing. I can, you know, 100 year old fixture, I can screw something into it and guess what? It works. Where? For the seminary, we're doing a amazing chapel. We're just refurbishing it. And I asked the custom fixture manufacturer, I'm like okay, so what are you doing in your fixtures? You know, we've got this to make this last. They're like, oh yeah, you know, screw base, you know, like okay. Because they know in 50 years they'll still be able to get a candelabra base bulb. And you know, I think we just need to, to really think long and hard on some of these applications.
I, I get the dimmability is not as deep. I get all the things that, and they don't last as long. I get all those things. But at the same time if you can't re lamp something like does it really matter?
[00:58:18] Speaker A: So yeah, I, I, you were talking. I, I completely agree with you. There was, you mentioned about controls too and I, I want to throw this like nugget out there too. Is remember that if you have a system that's connected to the cloud and then the manufacturer as one of the big lighting control manufacturers last week got bought by somebody else and then they shut down the servers. That and this is a, this is a lighting control system that all the tech companies went after. They were super excited about this. They have now been bought by another company and they have shut down all the old cloud servers.
So all those old technical.
No, this happened this, this happened last week.
[00:59:02] Speaker B: Big university in my city used that system. Yes.
[00:59:06] Speaker A: Yep. I always, for those of you who know me, I don't want to speak names but I always called it the security system. That was calling itself a lot of control system.
But I mean that happens. And there's other big name manufacturers that are cloud based controls because that's how they're going to give you the sustainability. That's their sales pitch. But if they decide to go another route like they have for the last 40 years of their manufacturing, they're gonna just shut down the cloud and make you forge on again. So, you know, this, this maintainability is a very deep and complicated conversation to have on your project, particularly based on the design you are going after. Right. Tape, light down lights, linear, fixed or suspended or recessed or whatever it may be. And you need to have a lighting designer, a professional who's not tied financially to the selections that are being made to guide you as an owner, as a customer, as an owner's rep, even electrician. And I find it amazing that the electricians aren't obsessing about this more. But they're not because they're done after a year. Right. They, they wipe their hands of their.
[01:00:31] Speaker C: But they get a maintenance call. I mean this is their bread and butter. I just remember an electrician told me years ago, and if you were on one of my projects, I wouldn't be able to make half as much, you know, because they make it from change orders and maintenance and service, you know, like all those things. So I don't think we're going to not dissing any electrical contractors. But it was like, you know, another sales call, another, you know, job site calls like I don't know. But, but that, that's huge. And I remember we used to work with one manufacturer a lot and they always made their, their products backwards Serviceability and till Gen4 and then they were bought out by a big guy and they're like, yeah, we decided, you know, to, you know, to streamline and optimize and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And they discontinued that. I'm like, I was your biggest salesperson, you know, and saying oh, they always make it backwards compatible. Until they don't. To your point, Avi. Until they don't, they don't. And so it's really, I can't believe that lighting controls.
[01:01:38] Speaker A: And that's why, and that's why I want to have the fixtures on the shelf. That's why? We kind of just went to this, just put it on the shelf and when you run out of it, you kind of, you run out of it and, and then you kind of know it's coming and you're gonna have to deal with it. Right. I honestly, the school district I'm, I'm starting to work with and some of these other spaces, the hotel I was mentioning earlier, they know that in two years they're out of their Audec stock and so they have to start thinking about it. Right.
If you're leaning on the market to go buy light bulbs and you haven't needed them in a while and then you gonna go buy them today and you can't find them, that's a little bit more difficult even to the point. And I am not knocking the replacement light bulb and what you were talking about having the medium based socket 100% all day long.
The biggest challenge we've had is getting called back in because manufacturer X changed their part numbers. They don't make that one anymore. It's two years later. Wait, which one are we supposed to use now? Okay, so now you got to go through the whole gamut of all the different manufacturers. The light bulbs are changing constantly. I am even calling them light bulbs. The lamps are changing constantly.
And so having to retest again, right, like, great, you have a socket that you can replace. Woohoo. But now figuring out the next thing to put in that socket two years later or three years later is still this conversation of that is really true.
[01:03:17] Speaker C: And when each time we get a hotel it's like, okay, you know, like, let's order a fresh batch of these. And we've gotten like 2400k in from like three same manufacturer, three different bulbs, all 24k. And they all, they all.
I like these two, this one's creepy, you know, and, and to your point. And then, but we, we're just working on a country club right now and we have gone through twice already. We have spec lamps at the beginning got, you know, okay, those were discontinued.
So we came up with a second one. Those were discontinued. And we're like, we're out. Like, we're, we're out. Somebody else has got to come and help us. We can't specify this. And to the point of, it's kind of like, you know how TVs are not never selected until like three months before something's opening, you know, because technology changes and all that. I'm like, I feel like we need to do the same thing for light bulbs. Like, yeah, three months before we'll start looking at those, and then we'll tell you what it is. You know, throw in a generic number for right now for, for those bulbs, and then we'll figure it out right before the place is about to open. And of course, you, you risk things, people being out or there's backstage, like, whatever, but it's crazy.
[01:04:39] Speaker A: I think you just use the AK. The part number should be AKLD 1582, and it's $25.
And so when somebody calls and says, hey, I need the pricing, it's like, yeah, it's 25 bucks. We'll send you, we'll tell you what it is in, in nine months when you actually need them.
[01:04:57] Speaker C: There you go. There you go.
[01:04:59] Speaker A: But there's, there's a lot here. And I, I think that what's important about this subject as, as we kind of wrap up is that there isn't one answer to this challenge other than hire a lighting designer and ask them what their standard is. How do they deal with this and make sure that if you are working with, aren't working with a lighting designer, well, shame on you, but that you ask the questions of whoever's supplying all this stuff and make sure that you know how you're going to change the light bulb a year after or when that first computer chip fails a week after opening.
[01:05:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's awareness. I think too. I think people need to become aware that these things don't last forever and they don't look as white as they the right white that you. You want. I was in an airport the other day. Of course, I'm always taking pictures, you know, but it's just like white, green, green, white, white, green. You know, like, you know, like, it's like, oh, my gosh. But, you know, so I think people just need to be aware. Like, LEDs don't last forever. What's. What am I going to do? If it's surface mounted, that's one thing, but if it's not, that's a big deal.
And so it's really, you know, it's just kind of that awareness. What's your life cycle? How long do you think expect this to last? And I think is a new question that I never necessarily thought, thought I would have to ask. But when they're coming back to us for zero fee saying, how can you help me fix this?
You know, you have to, you have to say, you know what a life's too short. I don't want to be fixing old projects. I want to be designing new fun, exciting projects. So I think it's just kind of a new awareness.
[01:06:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean to that point, like we, I think you both know, we, we started a maintenance division. We maintain one of our restaurant clients, all their restaurants hourly because we got done doing it for free.
And I mean it's been very successful for them. It's been okay for us, but at least we know it's being taken care of. Right. But yeah, how do we find a solution to maintain these projects and educate contractors, the owners, whoever build systems appropriately so they can maintain this for 60 years plus?
[01:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so they can. And like Ann said at the very beginning, she gets excited about the new projects.
[01:07:40] Speaker C: So always.
[01:07:43] Speaker A: Well. And thank you so much for joining us today.
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[01:08:50] Speaker B: While opticolor plus enables dynamic RGBW color control allowing for vibrant customizable lighting to fit any space. Stay tuned Avi, because I might not finish this.
[01:09:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
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[01:09:30] Speaker C: Go ahead.
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[01:10:28] Speaker A: I tell you, when I saw that first Lumen Core, you know, single cell RGBW with that funky optic thing, I was like, oh, man, this kind of looks. Look terrible on the wall. I then shine on the wall. I was like, wow. And each cell is different, so you got to get, like, a certain distance away to get it just perfect.
And it's just smooth and. And I was like, why? Why are you doing all that? It's like, because you can never get it perfect. So this way we can get it perfect so the light looks right and you don't have what Sean Murphy in my office likes to call Chiclets. It's like, cool. Yeah, good thinking. Somebody over there looking at optics and how this all goes together. And then I asked the question poignant to this conversation. Yeah. How do you know that's going to go back together? Right?
It doesn't matter. That's the whole concept. Like, you can do it however you want and it'll work. We'll ship it. And it just. That's the whole reason of the funkiness. I'm like, sweet, cool deal.
[01:11:33] Speaker C: And on that maintainability front, they've done a couple things. You know, one is, and I forget if it's their L70 or L90, but they have 250,000 hours for downlight, which trips my trigger for maintainability. And they also have a refurbishing program where you can send the fixtures back and they will refurbish them, which is huge.
You know, like, to. To have a manufacturer that has invested in that. So that's, you know, to have them as a sponsor is perfect.
A perfect fit, because they are already thinking maintainability.
[01:12:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, thank you again, Ann.
[01:12:19] Speaker C: Welcome.
[01:12:19] Speaker A: Lisa. Lovely to see you again.
Chicago people love it all. And this will be. Thank you. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead, Lisa. Oh, just.
[01:12:29] Speaker B: I am in Chicago today, so we're all. We should have been in the same room.
[01:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. Don't throw away. Although I can't throw that far.
[01:12:41] Speaker B: Anyway, Great. Thank you, Ann, for sharing your insights. It was really good.
[01:12:45] Speaker C: My honor.
[01:12:47] Speaker B: Thank you, Lighting Matter.
As we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time, and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues.
[01:13:04] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining perfect personalized guidance from a professional I ALD Lighting Designer, such as RBLD or More Lights for your next endeavor.
