Episode 21: From Overlooked to Essential: The Four Visual Professionals in Architecture

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting Matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design. [00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters. Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Hello, Lisa. How are you? [00:00:32] Speaker B: Hi, Avi. I'm great. I'm great. We decided to just talk to each other today. Hooray. [00:00:41] Speaker A: Hooray. Yeah, it's long overdue that we had a kind of like a update, a direction clarification on this podcast we have going. So this is the Lighting Matters podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Avi Moore with Moore Lights in Chicago, and I'm here with the famous Lisa Reed. [00:01:06] Speaker B: I'm Lisa Reed with Reed Burkitt lighting design in St. Louis. And we're celebrating right around one year of doing this podcast. [00:01:17] Speaker A: One year. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Congratulations. [00:01:19] Speaker A: Any regrets? [00:01:21] Speaker B: Oh, not that I'm going to record, no. It's been really interesting. [00:01:29] Speaker A: I regret not spending enough time on it, but I feel like we're doing a good thing. And those of you out in the audience that are listening and have responded to either Lisa or I, it's been really great to hear the feedback, and we hope you keep it coming. [00:01:50] Speaker B: Definitely. And to all our guests, I have learned so much from you. It's been really a great thing for me to do. I've learned so much. It's altered and improved my design, and I appreciate each one of you so much. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it is kind of amazing how each one of our guests. I feel like there's something I've learned that I've applied to the practice. I've shared with somebody. And honestly, one of my many goals of this podcast was to have a recorded language that I could send to a customer and say, hey, no, it's not just me saying this. Like, look, recorded. Here's people saying this. It's not just me. [00:02:37] Speaker B: It's recorded. It's official. Right? Believe everything you hear on the Internet, right? Everything. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Everything. At least everything we say is true, right? [00:02:46] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [00:02:48] Speaker A: So you. [00:02:49] Speaker B: You were saying goals of the podcast. So since it's been kind of a year, we should talk about our goals and maybe how they've changed and adapted. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think one thing we. We have started to do and the audience has started to see is we're working to get outside of the lighting world. And we just released an episode with a landscape architect. We're recording tomorrow with an interior designer. We had an architect. We're really trying to expand. And I think ultimately our goal is to focus on advocacy for our profession and whether that is lighting. Lighting design. That is lighting design in all of its different forms and functions and spaces, but really advocating for the design. And I think what's been amazing are the, the people we've recorded, and I have this note on my, on my desk now, is this idea of the four primary professionals in. In the built environment for. [00:04:04] Speaker B: For visual. I think you like the word out professionals. [00:04:07] Speaker A: Yes, for primary visual professionals. And. And it's been interesting that we could dive a little bit into that. I think that would be fun. But. But ultimately we're trying to focus on this profession and this idea. This Four visual professionals. [00:04:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And so the four visual professionals for an architectural space are obviously the architect, the interior designer, the landscape architect, and then the lighting designer. And when we first started the podcast, I remember we were talking about, hey, we want to have these conversations that happen in the, you know, the late hours of a conference when people are sitting around talking and lighting professionals are really good at talking to each other about how important our profession is. And we talk to each other about why lighting needs more respect in the greater built environment. And so now, Avi, you and I are trying to actually, let's take that conversation, have those same kinds of conversations, but really honest, unflinching conversations. But have those with the other design professionals, the other four visual professionals that impact an architectural space. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Well, and, and I find it interesting, as you know, during the past year we've seen that AIA have a conference collecting different consultant organizations and businesses associated with the built environment and completely forgetting the fourth visual design professional, I. E. Lighting design. And I've kind of taken it upon myself to post a few blog posts on the Morelights website, kind of asking how that happened. And the funny thing is. Sorry, go ahead. [00:06:16] Speaker B: Well, it's shocking really, that I've seen 10 years ago the same thing happened. AIA had a whole list of allied professions on these flags at their convention, and lighting design was not one of them. It just was forgotten. [00:06:34] Speaker A: And what I find very interesting in the conversations since around AIA Chicago events, I spent two days down at Neocon at the Mart. The professionals you talk to, the interior designers, the architects, and even the landscape architects that we that I run into all have agreed when I've presented this idea, and of course, as a lighting designer presenting this idea to these professionals, I have asked what are we missing in this concept of the four primary visual professionals? And every single one of them have come back to me and said, a, you're not missing anything, and B, well, yeah, lighting design brings it all together because those first three things aren't possible without light. And I think. Think we've talked about this on the podcast too, but daylight and electric light both are light, whether the lighting designer is doing the daylight or not. Management. Somebody's doing it and somebody is being a lighting designer to design said daylight. [00:07:55] Speaker B: Right. I've heard someone say, maybe someone on our podcast, you know, whoever decides to go to the wall and. And hit that switch and turn on that light is a lighting designer. So whether they want to be or not, the accidental lighting designer. That seems like a good topic. [00:08:15] Speaker A: We're each lighting designers in our own homes. We are lighting designers in our cars. [00:08:21] Speaker C: Right. [00:08:21] Speaker A: You turn the light on or off the headlights, the whatever it is. [00:08:25] Speaker B: I do dim it way down at night. My husband always dims the dashboard way down to almost nothing at night. [00:08:30] Speaker A: Even. Even in Chicago with the lights are. Street lights are massively bright. I still have the interior lights dimmed down. And honestly, I, I think they don't dim low enough. I. I do find it interesting over the years that they've connected the. The display. [00:08:50] Speaker C: Right. [00:08:50] Speaker A: The screen illumination, I guess illuminance. Screen illuminance aligns with the dashboard illuminance now. It's pretty close. [00:09:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:03] Speaker A: Am I using that right? [00:09:05] Speaker B: Luminance, I think is what you're luminous. But yeah, my screen is still too bright with my dashboard. I wish I could separate those. Never thought about that until you said it. I mean, I think about it all the time, but like, I mean, even. [00:09:18] Speaker A: My Kohler faucet, we're not sponsored by Kohler, has a little led and you know, you can wave your hand to turn the thing on and off, but it's crazy cool and way too bright. And all I want to do is get a little neutral density with a little cellophane tape, put it over that little light because it's just too bright. Especially at night. [00:09:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't have that needs a little dimmer. But in a bed and breakfast I stayed at once. And yeah, it was. It was. Wait. I know what you're talking about. Way too blue, way too bright. [00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:54] Speaker B: You can fix it. [00:09:56] Speaker A: But advocating for the profession is something that is not being done well. And I think that we have this great platform in this podcast to get those conversations that, like I had at Neocon that you've had with your customers and with other people to just really re. Emphasize this kind of like hidden thought that lighting design is really important and we want to have lighting designers involved in jobs. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Okay, so advocating for the profession, and we're doing that with the podcast. What are some other ways that we can do that? I know we've talked about some of this in the past too, but we've both got a lot going on with that. [00:10:56] Speaker A: So there's a couple of things going on. But I think podcast specifically, we are going to be recording in person together at the ArcLight Summit in Dallas in September, 9-16-17, I believe we're on the 16th. [00:11:17] Speaker B: Yep. [00:11:18] Speaker A: And we're going to, I think we decided we're going to go down the advocacy pass there, you know, get some real world input from that audience. And then I think. Sorry, go on. [00:11:32] Speaker B: Well, just, you know, there we are lighting designers talking to lighting designers in Dallas, but going to be a big group of us and I think that'll be interesting. We'll record there and hopefully air that for everyone to hear. [00:11:48] Speaker A: Well, and as you were saying, the conversations, and we've talked about the conversations that happened at the bar, putting them up on the Internet and recording them. You know, I don't expect our guests who are not lighting professionals to make it to ArcLight or to an IES conference or an IALD conference, but I expect the conversations that we have there to be very relevant to those folks. And maybe that's a step in the right direction to take the conversation happening there and bring it to the larger audience. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Right. I do. I think what you'll hear when you hear a bunch of lighting people talking about the importance of advocating for the profession is just start to hear all the passion around this industry and you'll get some great insights from people about why it matters, what they're doing to advocate in their own practice for the profession. And I think it'll be good for all our listeners. I hope so. [00:13:01] Speaker A: You know, it's interesting, as you were saying that I was thinking also that it's advocating for a passion that each of us have and while we all own businesses. And this is, you know, I practice lighting design so I can pay my mortgage, but I really practice it because I love it so much. And I think an important part of the collective talking about the importance of lighting design is that you start to remove the financial connection to it. [00:13:36] Speaker C: Right. [00:13:37] Speaker A: It's not more lights saying this because more lights want to make more money. It's more lights and rebriquet lighting design and, and, and, and saying it. Then that should hopefully start to trigger some minds to say, well, shouldn't we look at this a little bit more closely? [00:13:58] Speaker B: Yeah. That it's, that it's, we're, we're all saying this, we're all coming into the same space and saying it together, not because we're competing with each other, but because we really do believe that lighting matters and that better lighting is going to create better lives for us and for everyone. Yeah. I want to throw in a little pitch also for. I'm at ArcLight Summit, also going to be talking about AI again, and I think it's relevant because I don't believe that AI is going to provide quality lighting design, at least not anytime soon. And I, I was really inspired by something I read over the weekend about, about that and how it's actually going to create a really great divide that's going to separate very good designers. It wasn't about lighting design, but very good design professionals are going to be able to stand apart because you really get to impact as a human, you get to impact how people feel and the human connection and that passion. And really, the very best designs are only going to come from the best designers. If it's about who can be fastest and who can, you know, be most efficient, if that's the space that a design professional is competing in, then you might lose to AI. But if it's about who can make the most creative design that's going to resonate with people, then it's going to be an opportunity to stand apart anyway. [00:15:45] Speaker A: Well, and ultimately for a residential developer, return the highest rents and occupancies for office developer. You know, again, high rents, full capacities for school, good test scores. [00:16:02] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:03] Speaker A: All of these things come together. There's always an end result to better design that will lead to the end, deep result you're trying to get to. [00:16:15] Speaker C: Right? [00:16:16] Speaker A: You don't just build a school to build a school, you build a school to house kids, get good test scores, which is good for the village or city or town, which brings more people in, which brings more development in, which brings more tax revenue. You know, like it's this circle and it all starts with good design for that school. It all starts with good design for those streets for the da da da da. [00:16:43] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:44] Speaker A: Everything is connected to it and, and I think we just have to keep reminding ourselves of where it comes back to, right? This, this increased revenue, increased test scores, increased rent values right there. There is an end goal that, that the design time, design money leads to, right? I mean, even in an airport, airlines want to be in a good airport. That's Efficient. They can turn around quickly. [00:17:20] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:21] Speaker A: And the city makes money on those gates and brings people in. [00:17:26] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:27] Speaker A: Like there's. There's all kinds of things connected ever. Everything we do has some kind of back connection and, and design leads the answer to increasing those, Those funds, those tests, those. Whatever it is. [00:17:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You don't want to say it all goes back to money, but I suppose it does. [00:17:51] Speaker A: I. Well, maybe that's just the entrepreneur in me always coming out like, how can I sell this? But yeah, I mean, obviously it's. It's hard to tie everything back to money, but. [00:18:10] Speaker B: I mean, we live in a capitalist society. [00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:14] Speaker B: It's gonna come back with money whether. [00:18:17] Speaker A: We like it or not, unfortunately. But I think on the advocacy front, another thing that we have chatted about is that when we think about the trade organizations that are in the lighting world. And Brianne at IES actually put together a pretty amazing list. And as I've communicated with her, she's expanded the list tenfold already of organizations that she missed. It's my belie. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. [00:18:53] Speaker B: It's a list of lighting organizations, and there are just dozens. There's so many. We're not one. We're not one unified organization. Maybe that's why we get overlooked by the aia. Anyway, so you were saying? [00:19:12] Speaker A: So my belief is that we have two organizations that I believe need to lead the way for advocacy. And each of them are important in their own respects and have their own places. And it would be my opinion that the Illuminating Engineering Society should lead the way for. And continue to lead the way, I should say, for technical standards and the technical side of lighting. We've talked a little bit about lighting being both technical and creative. Left brain, right brain. More lights. We have a whole graphic devoted to this idea. But there really is a very technical side of what we do. And we need the IES to continue to lead that charge. [00:20:05] Speaker B: Right. And the IES is us. And it's this almost all volunteer organization writing standards that we can't do our jobs without these lighting standards. It's critical to what we do because not only do we live in a capitalist society, but we also live in a litigious one. And we have to have documents that we can point to that we can say, no, we designed to a standard and this is it. So the IES is absolutely critical for us to do that work. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Yeah. The IES does play a fine line between the technical and the creative. [00:20:50] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:51] Speaker A: Those, those recommended practices. Those, those standards have. I. I don't Know, the best word I can come up with in my hand is head right now is fluff. There's. There's areas to veer. It doesn't have to be these things. But if. If you have a design professional that can explain why you veered from the recommended practice, then great. But you still need that recommended practice as a place to start. And you need the research and the technology associated that the IES takes care of hand in hand. [00:21:33] Speaker B: Yeah, you always have to know the rules before you break them. [00:21:36] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. So I think the IES needs a lead in advocacy on the technical aspects, and I think the IALD needs to. How do I not say this in a. In a rude way, but like, get. Get some push, get some motion, get some strap on a belt and let's go. And needs to lead the. See, I don't even like that one. I don't know. I was going to say something way male and I hate that, so. But lead the charge for design advocacy and lead this concept. Because, Lisa, we have yet to come up with a better idea and neither have our guests, which is the four primary visual professionals. And to see what the first three came up with, you need the fourth one. [00:22:41] Speaker B: Mm. It's true. I. So IES and IALD have always worked closely together. I don't know if they're the oldest organizations on Brienne's list of flighting organizations. Maybe, maybe not. I guess it's got to be one of the older ones. [00:23:03] Speaker A: I would think so. [00:23:06] Speaker B: But IALD came along 50 years after the IES or so because there was a need for design professionals to be able. We're not engineers, and that's the Illuminating Engineering Society. And so then, as design professionals, we really did want to advocate for the design side of the profession. I mean, that's why. That's why it came into existence. I was challenging you earlier on. Does it have to be those two organizations? Is there someone else who can come up and. And do this? But. But certainly those two have momentum and history and have a lot going for them. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Well, I did get asked by. As you know, I've been recruiting people into our IALD committee that we've been kind of working on, which is advocating for the profession inside iald. And I've been trying to recruit for that committee, and I've had a few people ask me, why are you doing this inside of iald? Doesn't seem like that is a priority for iald. Why don't you just start something new and a. I don't have the time to start something new. But, B, I truly believe there is a sliver of brand recognition that exists inside the IALD that why would you create something new? And I do believe, and I'm a trusting individual, my wife would tell me that. I think my staff would tell me that. I do believe that this current II board does finally realize that they have to advocate for the profession first and foremost before dealing with other things. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I'm excited about the momentum that is, or I'm excited about the inertia that's being overcome. How about that? I don't know if we have momentum yet. [00:25:15] Speaker A: Yeah, no, momentum's hard with busy professionals, but I would agree with you, the inertia is there. [00:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah. But there's a lot of excitement and enthusiasm in the lighting community about. Hey, yeah, Right. We do need to get the word out about why lighting matters, why it's important, why lighting design matters specifically. It seems like every committee meeting, someone new joins because they hear about it and say, yes, that's what I want to be a part of. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think that we, you know, I think that we start through the, you know, the second half of the year or the first half of season two, I guess, of lighting matters. Bringing the lighting world to the global world. [00:26:16] Speaker C: Right. [00:26:17] Speaker A: Kind of bringing ArcLight and potentially IES and ILD to the global world. And maybe that leads us to recording at Neocon and bringing lighting to Neocon through the podcast. Bringing lighting to the AIA show, wherever that is next year, or maybe some regional architectural shows. [00:26:41] Speaker C: Right. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Like really bringing light to people and this and, and. And keeping. Keep pushing this idea until modified or corrected or honed appropriately. About the four primary visual professionals in the built environment. [00:27:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we're getting somewhere with that. That is something we can latch onto. It's a concept that makes sense, and I think it's going places. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that there could be an argument to explain what a lighting designer does. And we'll get there. We're working on that. I think through the podcast, we've started to explain some of it, what the difference is between lighting designers and all the other people who are potentially lighting designers. Like we said, you're a lighting designer. When you walk into your home center and buy a light bulb, that choice is a lighting design choice. But I think an interior designer would argue that when you walk into your favorite furniture store and you buy a couch, you have become the interior designer. You know, so I think there, There, there are avenues where people become their own visual professionals. But I think we're trying to really focus on that larger built environment. I guess I caution the. Even the word larger, right? [00:28:21] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, let's talk about that. Because we've talked about that before too. It doesn't have to be a large project to warrant lighting design. [00:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Beating it with a dead horse. Dead stick. Dead whatever. I'm not not doing good with the analogies today. [00:28:42] Speaker B: There's a stick and a horse in there somewhere. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Stick, a horse. But, you know, my mom's little fitness facility, we did 5,000 square feet, two fixture types, a little bit of dolly. Wait, why are you gonna paint the ceiling black? Uplight it, paint it white? Yeah. There'll be all this stuff in the way. You want to do yoga. Well, there you go. [00:29:08] Speaker C: Right. [00:29:09] Speaker A: Instantly have those capabilities. I think that it's not about size and it's not even about scale. It's really about the desire and need to have a space that affects people's emotions. [00:29:32] Speaker B: Yes. A space that meets the visual needs of the people occupying that space. We have one residential client who, for whatever reason that I don't completely see or understand, is very uncomfortable, very bothered physically by LED light. And so we spend a lot of time working on finding products that she can still use with legacy sources because LED hurts her eyes. Okay. So that is a small, very niche need that requires a lighting designer because she can't go buy that stuff at Home Depot anymore. It's all led. [00:30:17] Speaker A: What do you think it really is? Is it flicker? Is it the super tiny point sources? [00:30:23] Speaker B: I think it's blue content, but I'm not entirely sure. I think it's. [00:30:28] Speaker A: Get rid of it. Lot of blue. Even the warmest LEDs. [00:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Because we've looked at warm, dim, and other things, and. And yeah, I think it's the blue pump specifically, but because she's been kind of okay with violet pump lamps. [00:30:50] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:30:52] Speaker B: But I don't. I don't have that solved. I just try to solve her. [00:30:56] Speaker A: But this is. This is like the most brilliant challenge. [00:31:01] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:01] Speaker A: Because it's both technical and creative. [00:31:06] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:06] Speaker A: Like, I don't like LEDs. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Sorry. That's all there is. [00:31:13] Speaker A: Like, 10 years ago. Okay, fine, now. But getting to the bottom. [00:31:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:20] Speaker A: There's. There's nothing other than design that could answer that question. [00:31:26] Speaker B: Right. So it's not about the size of the space. You know, currently we're working on a tiny little pool house. Yeah. It's meeting the visual needs of the occupants of the space. And you said too, the way people feel. So it's Visual needs. It's emotional needs. [00:31:47] Speaker A: Well, we have a new IES standard that talks about both the visual and physical needs of occupants in spaces. Right. Like, that is a great reference standard that, you know, going back to our trade organizations. [00:32:02] Speaker C: Right. [00:32:03] Speaker B: Like, that's the first time that IES has ventured into the. Okay. There's actually a biological component to what's happening with the lighting that we design. [00:32:15] Speaker A: Well. And I love the little sound bit that it is the first recommended practice without an actual light level anywhere inside of it, because everything IES has done leading to that point is about visual quantity of light and quality of that light. But this is now talking about the physical effect of light. It's just super fascinating. And again, this is the technical result that then has to be designed appropriately into application. I don't know. It just gets me super excited. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Me too. It's what's kept me interested all these many years. Should we talk about the direction and the arc that are future podcasts are going to take show by show? [00:33:22] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. That's a great, great point too. Something that we've picked up through some of the different learning about how to record a podcast and run a podcast that we're going to really try and create an arc to future episodes. The very kind of traditional play steps. [00:33:48] Speaker C: Right. [00:33:49] Speaker A: You have your intro, you have your body of the story and a. In a concluding element. [00:33:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Gonna leave it at that. Gonna be mysterious. See if they can figure it. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I think each. Each one will have interest. And by, by no means are we going to not let the conversation just carry on, but our goal is to focus these podcasts a little bit better for you, the audience. So we take advantage of your time and make it as efficient for you as possible and get you the content that you want. And really to advocate for the profession and find more avenues and be able to have recorded sessions that can keep being sent out and sent around and advocate for the profession. Now, I'm questioning that language, though, advocating for the profession. Oh, that to me feels like a connection back to money. [00:34:59] Speaker B: Right. Self serving. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Self serving. I don't think that is not our goal. Our goal is designed spaces. [00:35:11] Speaker C: Right. [00:35:12] Speaker B: The. [00:35:12] Speaker A: The human connection to light. What we were talking about. [00:35:17] Speaker C: Right. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Lighting spaces appropriately. [00:35:21] Speaker B: Right. And we're. We're advocating because, well, illuminated spaces make life better for everyone. So we're advocating for lighting design. Hmm. We need to work on our language. [00:35:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Welcome the audience to respond. LinkedIn is the best place for you to comment on this. You are listening live as the creative Marketing engine gets created on how we move, at least I think our businesses and ultimately what we think is the. The focus that needs to happen for lighting design. But yeah, the perfect. You know, again, we, we, we talked a little bit about this being a, you know, about money and, and all of that. But, but in the end, you know what, when you think about it like AIA and as la. The landscape architects, right, they're talking about great architecture. They're talking about great landscape architecture. Our focus is great lighting design for the end users, for the people that are experiencing those spaces. We happen to have a profession that does that, but the end goal is the lighting design. Great designed spaces. [00:37:06] Speaker B: And it's definitely for the people. You were talking about great architecture. And maybe architects kind of famously can get caught up in the design for the sake of the architecture, because I think the lighting can also be the. We're looking for great lighting that is for the architecture and that is for the landscape architecture too. But all of us as professionals have to remember that it's for the people who are occupying those spaces in the end. But, man, great design. People don't even realize, right? You go into a space that's been designed well and it's just chef's kiss. It's just, oh, look at how all of these things are aligned. And I get so excited about the design. I forgot to just enjoy the space, which is what the normal person would be doing. [00:38:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I can't tell you how. I can't tell you the track system that they use at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem in that museum, But I can tell you, when I got to the end of the exhibit, I was crying. It's the only exhibit I've ever walked through where I was crying. And, you know, maybe the emotion of the day or whatever it may be, but I wasn't staring at how things were lit. It was just so engaging and connected. And I can't think of another place that I've been since where I am just truly lost. Although I would say, you know the Cubs game the other day where we beat the Cardinals. [00:39:07] Speaker B: Shut up, man. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Had to light it up. [00:39:11] Speaker B: You had me. Yeah, you had me go. And I was like, oh, I cried at the Guggenheim in New York looking at the Van Gogh exhibit because I was so excited to be in that space and then viewing work from one of my favorite artists. And, like, that's the only time I remember. And, yeah, I don't remember the lighting in there. I was enraptured by the space. [00:39:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Or I always tell people, you know that. And I can't think of one recently, but as most of you know, I have three little boys, so we don't get out to fancy dinners all that often. But that night where you just, you know, carrying on a conversation in a, in a, in a restaurant, enjoying the company, drinking good wine, eating good food, you know, it's just the right environment. You've been there for like three hours. The lights have changed, but you haven't noticed it. [00:40:07] Speaker B: Yes. And nothing's bothering you. [00:40:10] Speaker A: Nothing's bothering you. Great weight, staff, a great everything. [00:40:15] Speaker C: Right. [00:40:15] Speaker A: And that's a designed environment to perfection. [00:40:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:22] Speaker A: And I hate to do it, but I gotta go here too. And while that could have been a three hour dinner, that restaurant made good money because we ordered another bottle of wine and we ended up with dessert and all those kinds of things. Right. So all those amazing design things, you know, so I just, I, I always come back to that. Why would you spend all this money on a great designer and all this stuff? Because that happens and you make money doing it. [00:40:52] Speaker B: Yeah. On the flip side, have you ever sat down in a restaurant and asked to be reseated because of the lighting was so bad? That happened to me recently. [00:41:08] Speaker A: I've done that. But I've also not as much as walking into a restaurant and turning to Rachel and saying, I can't. The flicker is so terrible, the color temperature's so awful. I don't care. This is a Michelin rated restaurant. It's wrong. I'm walking out. There's no way. I cannot support a. I cannot support a company that doesn't support the idea of good lighting design. That, that, yeah, that, that's a challenge for me. [00:41:51] Speaker B: Have you watched the new season of the Bear? [00:41:55] Speaker A: No, that's that one that takes place here in Chicago. Right, the restaurant. I've seen a bunch of ads for it. I haven't seen it. [00:42:02] Speaker B: It's an absolute love story to Chicago, but also to restaurants and also to passion for your work and passion for excellence. And anyway, so many of the things you just said made me think of that. [00:42:19] Speaker A: I'll add it to the list. I gotta admit, if I start sitting down to a show like that, I won't be able to stop. So then everything else will just kind of suffer. So I've really tried to avoid that lately. [00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I did take in season three within one weekend. Was that three, four, whatever the recent season is. Yeah. [00:42:44] Speaker A: Well, you know, I have a long weekend ahead of me here with the kids, so, you know, maybe It's a good opportunity to put them down early and binge some episodes, maybe. [00:42:57] Speaker B: I would love to know what you think as a. As a business owner. It's kind of stressful. There's a lot of frustration that is recognizable, especially owning a business. Owning a business. Working in a field that I care so much about, I just. I just can relate. But, yeah, plus, I like the Chicago scenes. You'll love that. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Well, you know, I was. I went recently and saw the new F1 movie in IMAX. [00:43:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:29] Speaker A: And my friend and I were reminiscing and trying to think of the last movie we saw in the movie theater, and I couldn't come up with anything other than the last IMAX movie I think I saw was Batman Returns or Begins, whichever one was shot primarily in Chicago with Heath Ledger. And they were hanging off the side of the Trump Tower, although it wasn't built yet. [00:43:58] Speaker B: Long time ago. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Had a McHugh Construction sign on the side of the building, you know, like, so that was a long time ago. And I remember seeing that in the IMAX and with. With a. With my friend, with Michael Link and, like, trying to go just a little bit further. Oh, that'll be that. Oh, it did get in the movie. [00:44:23] Speaker B: That's funny. [00:44:24] Speaker A: So. So, yeah, anything shot in Chicago, I mean, I love seeing. So that's why the bear. I've seen the commercials, and I'm kind of like, yeah, maybe I should get into it. [00:44:36] Speaker B: Let me know what you think. All right. [00:44:39] Speaker A: Well, we are getting towards the end of our episode today. I hope as we circle it back around, you can see Lisa and I kind of shifting the tone of the podcast into this advocacy mode and working to bring to you our audience, the lighting world and bringing it outside of the lighting world. So, as we said, we will be at ArcLight in September, and it sounds like we're going to do our best to try and do something at IES and IALD's shows coming up this fall as well, and, you know, hopefully get some good feedback from you, the audience, about where to go next and how to adjust this language. [00:45:35] Speaker B: Yeah, good. Let us know what you want to hear. Let us know how you want to. How you want us to talk about lighting. [00:45:43] Speaker A: And if you'd like to be a guest on the podcast, let us know as well. We'd love to have more guests, more people. And if you'd like to sponsor the podcast, we would love to hear from you as well. It's been a lot of fun, Lisa, and I really appreciate you being a part of this with me on this fun ride. [00:46:08] Speaker B: Absolutely. One of our company values is to be delighted by light and life, and I'm delighted by the podcast. Thank you for being my co host. [00:46:22] Speaker A: Love it. Well, thanks everybody. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. See you next time. Thanks Lisa Lighting Matters as we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time, and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to leave like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues. [00:46:46] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional IALD lighting designer such as RBLD or More Lights for your next endeavor.