Episode 24: Voices from IES25

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting Matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design. [00:00:09] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters. Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. We have such a treat in store for you today. This episode is completely different. I'm one of your co hosts, Lisa Reed with Reed Burkett Lighting Design. [00:00:32] Speaker C: And I'm Avi Moore with Moore Lights in Chicago. And, yeah, we are so excited. This is a treat, a new thing that we're trying. Lisa and I flew to Anaheim, California, and attended the IES conference. And we brought a bunch of gear and we talked to a few people. It was a lot of fun. [00:00:54] Speaker B: It was really fun to talk in person. We were all standing around together in real life. [00:01:00] Speaker C: So we asked each of our guests approximately the same five questions. And we started with introduce yourself and how you got to the IAS conference and what brought you to the IAS conference. I thought the responses were kind of funny. Yeah, took a train, took a plane. But also, like, where people were coming from and why they came to the conference. We talked about takeaways from the conference. We also asked how each of them are advocating for the profession as something that we're doing a lot here on the Lighting Matters podcast, talking about advocating for light and lighting design. Thought that was really, really interesting. Some of the responses, we also asked what they thought was the most powerful way light impacts people's lives. I thought our last guest had some very interesting responses. And what do you want clients to know better about lighting design? And again, every single one of these conversations went in a different direction, which was really great. And maybe towards the end, Lisa will summarize our feelings of each of these talks. [00:02:30] Speaker B: All right, sounds good. So get ready. [00:02:33] Speaker D: Buckle up. [00:02:33] Speaker B: The first one, I was just wandering around the floor and grabbed what I thought was a random person and said, hey, come. Come record with us. Come be on our podcast. And it turns out she and I used to work for the same firm. So take a listen. [00:02:47] Speaker D: So here at the conference, I found Violet and invited her to come talk to us and tell us a little bit about yourself. So, first of all, how did you get here in the lighting space and here to the conference? [00:03:01] Speaker E: Yeah, so I guess getting into the lighting space is. I started out as a college student in the design realm, and I took a lighting class at Absolutely Fell in love. I realized that in the design space, I was trying to find my warm and fuzzy. And once I stepped foot in that class and listened to my professor speak is when I realized lighting is my warm and fuzzy. So that's how I got into the lighting space. But as far as getting to this conference, to this day, I. I guess. I mean, we drove from Costa Mesa is where I'm going to start it, but kind of we want to get more involved in the lighting world and really immerse ourselves. The company that I currently work for is called Katara. I've been heading off their lighting design department for about two years. And it's our goal to kind of bring the integration world peacefully to the lighting world, peacefully and happily so. In kind of our efforts to do so is really embracing and knowing that we're on the same team. So getting more involved at IES is. Is kind of my. My mission. [00:04:04] Speaker D: Oh, that's great. That's great. So you're here at the conference. It's kind of early in the conference, so I was going to ask you about conference takeaways. I'm still going to ask. [00:04:13] Speaker A: Is this your first IES conference? [00:04:15] Speaker E: No, I went to one and I believe it was in Palm Springs. Was there one in Palm Springs? [00:04:21] Speaker A: That would have been iald, I think. Are you in Palm Springs for ial? [00:04:26] Speaker E: Maybe it was. I. Maybe this is my first one then. [00:04:29] Speaker D: Ball shoes. I like your badge. [00:04:33] Speaker E: Lighting person. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Lighting person, absolutely. [00:04:36] Speaker D: I'm gonna go get that ribbon. [00:04:40] Speaker A: How are you. How are you looking at integration and advocating for good lighting design? What are you doing in that realm? [00:04:50] Speaker E: Yeah, so I think the biggest kind of disconnect I was noticing as a designer is drawing up my perfect specification package and really not knowing what happens with those specs behind the scenes. So I think my biggest thing of coming to the integration world is taking their philosophy of really being in control of those specs all the way through from speakers and TVs and all the things that they do and bringing that to lighting. So kind of what we've really been honing in on is how. How to keep up with the true design standards of the lighting design industry while also being able to bring in all of the wonderful takes from the integration side and make those meld together and honestly play fair. [00:05:32] Speaker A: And I would assume that you're working on projects that you're acting as a lighting designer, but also working on projects with lighting designers on it, or primarily just you all being the lighting designer. [00:05:43] Speaker E: Yeah. So in our attempts to kind of play fair to all aspects is we only will work on projects that we're doing the lighting design on and only supply fixtures that we are doing the light lighting design on as well. [00:05:54] Speaker F: Okay. [00:05:55] Speaker E: Keep that integrity. The whole goal is just at the. [00:05:58] Speaker G: End of the day, we work in. [00:05:59] Speaker E: The custom homes, like hired custom home space. So keeping that client happy is our main goal. And knowing that, you know, the products that I believe in are what's left on the job. [00:06:08] Speaker F: Right. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's a challenge we've talked about in our podcast from top to bottom. And there's all kinds of different methodologies that different companies have taken to find these solutions. Yeah, it's to keep the control and make sure that the owner gets what they want. And in a high end home, like they're spending a lot of money, we want to get them what they want. So it's very important. And the detail that they're expecting and the ease of use comes back to that integration and control. [00:06:42] Speaker E: It's that next level. And I don't think there's one perfect solution to kind of bridge that gap. I'm not saying we have all the answers in the slightest bit, but, you know, I talk about control and I think the biggest thing is I'm a total control freak and I'm proud of that. And I think that's when I meet with a homeowner for the first time and just get to know their inner workings and know that, you know, if we do work at the Hustler or making sure that your vision that you dreamed up together, it's really comes to life. And I'm seeing every, every step of that. And our design team is staying and seeing every step as well. Because I want when the client walks in that space for the first time, that. Oh, wow. And not the stress of wait, that doesn't look quite right. I've already vetted it. I'm fits on the ground on the job site, eight feet. So it's kind of a different approach, but we're hoping that the lighting industry that's really embracing what we're trying to do at least. [00:07:36] Speaker A: Do you have a favorite story of like walking in with a client and being. And they like tell you. Do you have a very. A favorite story? [00:07:44] Speaker E: Yeah, actually one of the projects that we're doing I inherited, so it's not my vision all the way through, but I was able to do a few switches and we put in this gorgeous track system down this long hallway. It's a coastal project. So down this long hallway, pretty much your art is the oce. And in the hallway they have these just gorgeous Skull pieces of art. One of them's kind of a woven material. The other one's acrylic paint. The other one's just a flat image. And before I got on that project, they just kind of had standard down like nothing really that was going to give as a kaza as you wanted. [00:08:22] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:08:23] Speaker E: And I spoke with the clients, you know, introduced myself of who I was. You know, can I, can I adjust your project a little bit? Try not to overstep. And we came up with this gorgeous track system. Views wack. It runs down the whole hallway. We're putting a white cap on it. So it's just this seamless white line and we have the tiny little mono point sticking out, just crookedly highlighting the Ulrichstaff. And then at night all of that kind of disappears and just guides you into the beautiful silhouette of the ocean. Yeah, it's wonderful. And it was such a wonderful feeling. [00:09:02] Speaker D: For me of being able to kind. [00:09:04] Speaker E: Of jump into a project where it wasn't exactly what the client wanted or expected because it wasn't fully thought out and designed. It was, you know, we can place fixtures and then being able to have that kind of moment with the client of this is what we drew up together. [00:09:19] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:09:20] Speaker E: And he's so thrilled. Such a warm and fuzzy again. Back to my warm and fuzzy. [00:09:25] Speaker D: Yeah. Well, and it's, it's high impact and that is lighting impacts people. So we have a question. In your opinion or in your view, what is the most powerful way that light impacts your clients or your projects? [00:09:42] Speaker G: I think the way it's, it's something. [00:09:44] Speaker E: That you can't fully communicate. I think how it's, how it impacts people. It's, it's everyone's perspective. Everyone has a different way of feeling comfortable in the space and knowing what they want out of a space. I think the most impactful thing is specifying and deciding what's right for the home and what's right for the architecture. And so you don't even necessarily have to have that gal moment. It just fits. It just makes sense. I think that's kind of our job as lighting designers to fill that gap in where the client doesn't mean to ask for it, you know what they're going to want the space and to really vet the space and make sure you're doing an ode to the architecture of the materials and the, the client itself, especially in the high end residential space, want it to be curated for that client. [00:10:28] Speaker D: Yeah, right, right. I think the fact that it's hard to just really put that into one little concise statement is why we have a podcast. Yeah, we can talk about that, right? [00:10:38] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. There's too many nuances. And there was somebody yesterday was talking about, like, the science of what we do, and it. There is so much science to what we do, but there's this tinge of art, there's this tinge of forefront. [00:10:56] Speaker F: Right. [00:10:57] Speaker A: It is all rooted in science, but there's a design and artistic decisions that happen in every selection, in every location that just brings it all together. And I think doing homes is like. It's so awesome because it's just like one or two people that you're working for. Sometimes they disagree. [00:11:20] Speaker E: I mean, that's the hard part. [00:11:26] Speaker D: But it's so. You're right. It's a smaller number of clients on your project. [00:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a couple. [00:11:31] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:11:32] Speaker F: Right. [00:11:32] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:11:33] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for joining us. And we'll have. We'll have a few more conversations to go. [00:11:40] Speaker G: Well, this is great. [00:11:41] Speaker E: Thank you so much for inviting me. [00:11:43] Speaker D: Thank you. [00:11:44] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:11:46] Speaker C: It was great hearing from Violet. It was so nice to meet her during the conference. I think it's so amazing what is happening in the home lighting environment and how these integrators are now hiring lighting designers as well as providing lighting. There's lots of podcasts and lots of conversation to lead from there, but I think it was a great place to hear what Violet had to say. And hopefully you got to see the photo of that hallway that she describes. [00:12:20] Speaker B: So then our next guest, as we hoped, kind of took things in a completely different direction, and he's doing some really exciting, I'll say, interesting and important work in the aftermath of the wildfires in Los Angeles earlier this year. Check it out. [00:12:40] Speaker A: Nick, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you get to the IES conference today? [00:12:47] Speaker H: I'm Nick Albert. I'm the principal of Chromatic Lighting Design in Los Angeles. I've been in the industry 20 years now, all in Los Angeles with just a few firms, and we specialize in architectural lighting, interior exterior, all of it. How did I get here? I literally just drove long way. It's Los Angeles, so a very short drive took several hours. [00:13:11] Speaker D: But do I remember, like, I remember having a pose as an architect one time? [00:13:16] Speaker E: You did, but is that also your education? [00:13:18] Speaker H: My background is in architecture in interior design with a little bit of construction that's in there. So, you know, I found my way into lighting more or less by accident, the way everybody does, but what kept me in lighting was this, the aspect of it where it's universally applicable to all building types, where lighting is something that you solve iteratively, time and time again. Each building, each typology, each place, each person you're working for, you're always solving it more and more deeply in more and more interesting ways. And I like that part of the process. It's something that sort of transcends any kind of stylistic or time code that otherwise might be applied to architecture and design. And it's really kind of ever present and focused on people. [00:14:04] Speaker D: Dave? [00:14:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't matter what the space is. It's still light. [00:14:08] Speaker F: Right. [00:14:09] Speaker A: You just have to apply that light to different kind of places, different kind of people in these spaces, whatever it is. Yeah. [00:14:15] Speaker H: You know, I always say, like, the physics and the geometry of it don't change. What changes are the experiences that you want people to have in that space or the experiences that they need to have in that space? And our relationship and their relationship with that light is relatively consistent, but you get to solve that same problem with those same set of rules and parameters, each project and each instance in a new, different, and more sort of deeply philosophical or deeply thoughtful way. [00:14:48] Speaker D: So we just had a keynote session with some Disney imagineers. [00:14:52] Speaker I: We did. [00:14:52] Speaker D: They are kind of solving the same problem, but evolving different emotions. Do you have any takeaways from. From that session? [00:14:59] Speaker H: Yeah, it's really interesting. I will admit, historically, I've had a tendency to sort of dismiss the theatrical lighting side of what we do to some extent, because it's not grounded in codes and rules and things like that. [00:15:15] Speaker F: Right. [00:15:15] Speaker H: There's this sort of like, flights of fancy, I would say. But what is really interesting is that the further I've gone in my career and the more that I've paid attention to kind of the lighting world writ large, you notice a lot of the common things and in place making and theme making and experience making, the things that an imagineer does to create this sort of, you know, to create this fantastical environment. There are a lot of the same conversations that we're having, but they can be had in everyday situations. How do you want your guests to feel when you have a dinner party at your house? How do you want your grandmother to feel when she has to go into an assisted living facility? How do you want your kids to feel when they have to walk home from school and the sun is starting to set? Those sort of feelings and experiences and sort of just general human focused comfort and experience is really the same in both those cases. So it's really nice to see the sort of maximal extreme that you can achieve with light and the sort of maximal over the top experience that an imagineer can create and try to pull those feelings into simple things like a bathroom or a street light or something like that. [00:16:35] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:16:35] Speaker A: So what. So we're at the IES conference, really the science part of our profession. [00:16:45] Speaker F: What. [00:16:45] Speaker A: What draws you to this show? What, what, why do you, why, why is this on your calendar? [00:16:52] Speaker H: Well, I think that one of the other aspects of lighting, that architectural lighting and lighting in general that's so interesting to me is the sort of dual nature of it. We, we frequently use the term, the sort of, like the art and science, right? Like, that's the common nomenclature. But I really think of it as the idea and the application of light. And so the IES to me is really about the application, the sort of physical, the parametrics of what light does, how it operates, the rules and standards that we use, the sort of the nomenclature that becomes the language we use to communicate these ideas. And the IAS has always sort of held court on that part of our industry. And I think it's a really important and really valuable part of what we do. I think if we're just talking whimsy and experience and magic, it's a little more like a snake oil salesman. [00:17:50] Speaker F: Right? [00:17:51] Speaker H: Like, at some point people don't buy it. And so the IAS has been really critical in sort of justifying, backing up, codifying, reinforcing those scientific parameters or those engineering parameters for the application of the light. Right. And so to me, to interact with this group, where we'll get a big cohort from the design community, but also from the engineering community and the manufacturers and electronics engineering. And now we're starting to get into data and AV folks and it sort of mentality. It's really a place where all of those parameters that are necessary to apply our ideas about light, it's a place for us to mix and figure that stuff out and really come together. And so where the IES supports our roles as lighting designers is really by creating these opportunities, like this conference and the many other things that they put on throughout the course of the year, as well as the membership support that they provide to our, to our membership in terms of keeping that application at the forefront of technology. [00:19:03] Speaker F: Go ahead. [00:19:04] Speaker D: Well, the IES has started to work on a little bit of that, supporting us, advocating for the profession, and that's what we talk about all the time on the podcast. And I'm sure That you and your firm have specific things that you're doing not just to market yourselves, but to advocate for the profession of the lady you also side. [00:19:23] Speaker H: Yeah, absolutely. [00:19:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:25] Speaker H: Well, it's a good question, because I think I really. The way I see it, I think lighting is at a really important sort of threshold for the industry because to some extent, historically, and all of the people who have practiced for a long time before us, their job has been to validate the profession, to hold it up to a level standard where it can carve out space from just strict electrical engineering or from architectural expression, it can carve out a place in the system of making a building. And our industry has supported that value proposition. I think that in order to do that, and what becomes a result is a perceived exclusivity to lighting. But when we think about, again, the application or those human experiences that I like to talk about that are really at the focus of our practice, those are universal, and those don't only occupy exclusive type architectural projects. So what I think is really important as we move forward and frankly, in order to move forward is supporting a wider swath of I like this guy. [00:20:56] Speaker I: Well. [00:20:56] Speaker A: And speaking my language. Yeah. [00:20:59] Speaker H: And I think it needs to be a conversation because it will also mean things like different fees, different paths to market, different. [00:21:09] Speaker F: Right. [00:21:10] Speaker H: Different. Different courses to execute. But the core idea of have people need space, make experience. That part will stay the same and is the same. [00:21:23] Speaker F: Right. [00:21:23] Speaker H: One of the things that we started through Chromatic, that we've been thinking about for a while now is starting a nonprofit we started called Light Equity. [00:21:33] Speaker F: Right. [00:21:34] Speaker H: And the idea is to close the access gap for people that have lighting design or even know about lighting design and people that get lighting design. And that doesn't just mean the people that get it in their space. That means the people that know about it as a field, as a career, as an opportunity to impact the built environment. There's a gap there in the same way there's a gap between the projects that get. What is often called a luxury consultant and the projects that dot. [00:22:06] Speaker F: Right, Right. [00:22:08] Speaker H: So I think that what we're really interested in is finding unique, maybe novel ways to solve that problem, to sort of close that gap, to bring lighting to more people, both professionally and in execution. The first initiative that we've started is actually trying to help folks rebuild after the fires in Los Angeles. [00:22:29] Speaker F: Oh, yeah. [00:22:30] Speaker H: Some 16,000 homes need to be built in the span of three or four years. That's residential construction largely wouldn't get even in a city as wealthy as Los Angeles. The vast majority of those homes would never get touched by a lighting designer. [00:22:43] Speaker F: Right? [00:22:43] Speaker I: Yeah. [00:22:44] Speaker H: So we're trying to use this non profit mechanism as a way of gathering our larger community together. People who may not practice with each other because they're in different firms or different parts of our industry, putting that effort that we all know to the use of serving that community to again, increase the way that people can perform lighting design, increase the number of buildings that get lighting design and the way that it impacts people's lives. I'm really excited about this. So a first example that I'll tell you is that we're partnering with other organizations who are helping in a similar way. And through some of these partnerships, there will be homes built in the Altadena fire area before the end of the year by Habitat for Humanity that have had professional lighting design. [00:23:36] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:23:37] Speaker H: Awesome, right? [00:23:38] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:23:38] Speaker H: And that's a really good example of how you can really shift the conversation. It is simple, basic residential lighting design, but it's thoughtful, it's human centered. And what it does is it changes that conversation now forever. Moving forward for. Even if it's just that family, just that home, those folks that build that house with Habitat. Right, Exactly. And if you think of how that reaches out, that's really where I see our industry needing to sort of change our shift and our focus and how we can come together to really expand the reach of our industry professionally and in execution. [00:24:15] Speaker D: They're calling us breakfast sessions. [00:24:17] Speaker H: But when I could talk all day though. [00:24:19] Speaker D: We need to have you on this show as a, as a feature. [00:24:22] Speaker E: Yes. [00:24:22] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:24:23] Speaker A: And I, I think it'd be great. [00:24:24] Speaker I: This was the ship. [00:24:25] Speaker A: No, and I, I think it'd be great to like share with the audience the information on how they can get involved. You know, like how can, how can. And ultimately, how do we, as Lighting Matters, publicize those homes that are getting built? [00:24:39] Speaker F: Right. [00:24:39] Speaker H: Well, like it's the. [00:24:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:41] Speaker H: Because lighting matters. And that's what we're saying. [00:24:43] Speaker F: Right. [00:24:43] Speaker H: I mean, the simplest way right now is just go to, to lightequity.org or light4la.org, there's a simple sign up form. We're just building this organization, we're fleshing it out. But like any organization, we're going to need, you know, people's time, we're going to need people's money, we're going to need access to equipment or facilities. It's not just focused on la. This is something that I think is applicable anywhere for starts. [00:25:10] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:25:12] Speaker H: This is where we can have a chance to show it. So check out the website, please, Both of you, please. I'm sure you both signed up already, but that's what we're talking about, and that's really how we want to move. I see. Lighting moving forward. [00:25:23] Speaker A: I see. Thank you. Thank you for stopping. Nick. [00:25:26] Speaker H: Good to see you. [00:25:26] Speaker A: Really appreciate it. Thanks so much. [00:25:29] Speaker C: I had not known Nick before, but I am so excited about what he's doing in L. A. And honestly, I signed up right away to see what we could do to help. I also find it so fascinating how a trained architect speaks about light in a totally different way than, like, a theatrical lighting designer. Like, I think I. We're saying the same thing in very different words. And I think there's a whole podcast that could, like, stretch out of that, which would be really fascinating. But I was so glad to meet Nick and have him on the podcast. [00:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I would say that was one of my favorite things about doing these discussions, these short discussions in quick order and asking the same questions was all of the language and the different ways of saying the same thing that we got from each guest. So this next person I think a lot of our listeners will recognize because she's been a frequent speaker in the lighting circuit, but she's taking a new perspective. [00:26:31] Speaker D: All right, we're so excited to be here at the conference with Shoshana Siegel. And that's hilarious. So, Shoshana, tell us who you are and how you got into lighting or why you're here at the IES conference or both. Okay. [00:26:47] Speaker G: So I'm Shoshana Siegel. I am a principal at Hartrap Lighting Studios. I'm the president of the New York City section of the ies and that sounds important. Well, I mean, that and $2.90 gets me on the subway, so. [00:27:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:27:01] Speaker F: Hey. All right. [00:27:02] Speaker G: But I'll be here all week. How did I get into lighting? I have an MFA in theatrical lighting design from the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and I spent three wonderful years. [00:27:15] Speaker J: Really. [00:27:15] Speaker G: Being very, very cold. [00:27:17] Speaker A: And because it's not that cold in Wisconsin. I mean. [00:27:21] Speaker G: I mean. Okay, I grew up in Kentucky, so. [00:27:23] Speaker F: Okay. All right. So that's cool. [00:27:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:25] Speaker F: All right. [00:27:26] Speaker E: Okay. [00:27:26] Speaker G: So also, I'm a proud Southern Jew, which is a whole nother thing. So I spent three years in Wisconsin, and I needed to pick a city to go and launch my career. And I really thought I was going to design opera. That's what I wanted to do. And so I am not a left coast person, and I was not going to Minneapolis or Chicago because I'm too close to being in Madison in Midwest winter. So I went to New York, and I got to New York and I started temping. And I learned that there are six people in the world who design lighting for performance for a living, and they are all either independently wealthy or married to someone who is. And I was neither. And so eventually I switched to architecture. And then I learned that architects are actually more fun than theater directors. [00:28:16] Speaker F: Oh. [00:28:17] Speaker G: I mean, I may be the only person to say architects are more fun than anything. Architects are more fun than theater directors. And so I love them. And that's what I did. [00:28:26] Speaker D: I feel like we could go somewhere. [00:28:27] Speaker B: With that, but we won't. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Okay. For another podcast, another time in the future. [00:28:33] Speaker G: In the future. [00:28:35] Speaker A: One of the things that we talk about on the podcast a lot is how lighting matters. [00:28:41] Speaker E: Okay. [00:28:41] Speaker F: Right. [00:28:42] Speaker A: And for us, it's all about advocating for the professional lighting design. Advocating for lighting. You had your own firm, now you're part of another firm. What. What have you done are you doing to advocate for the profession? How are you educating them on? [00:29:00] Speaker G: So we believe very strongly in house, well, at heart, Trend Lighting Studios. We believe very strongly that everyone deserves and is entitled to quality lighting in the spaces where they live and work. And that is really our raison d'. Etre. That is why we do what we do, because we want people to be in well crafted, thoroughly considered visual environments. We feel like that is healthy for people. It is supportive of people and their needs and all their various identities. It's the way that we go through the world. So that's how we advocate for lighting and for the profession, because we feel like that's the way that we can make a difference. [00:29:39] Speaker D: Yes. Well crafted, thoroughly considered. [00:29:43] Speaker G: Yes, well, thoroughly consider. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Yeah. That's what I've been loving about our conversations is everybody's got really great language to this story. [00:29:54] Speaker G: I think how you talk about what you do and what you care about really matters. And I think that one of the things that's really fun about our industry is that we really are a group of individuals and we all see what we do slightly differently. I was thinking about that this morning as I was listening to the Disney Imagineers, and I was like, oh, wow, my process is the same as the Disney Imagineers. I just talk about it differently. [00:30:19] Speaker F: Right. [00:30:20] Speaker G: So, yeah, I think it's part of being a member of a quirky little group of a profession. So. [00:30:28] Speaker A: And how do you. How do you take that and explain it to somebody who's like, well, I don't understand Why I need a lighting designer. Why we were talking earlier today was somebody was talking about how we're a luxury and we need to move beyond. There's a connotation that we're felt like a luxury. Okay, so how. How do you talk that back? How do you explain? [00:30:58] Speaker G: Yeah, I mean, I think what I like to say is the lighting designer is the member of the team, the only member of the team who is concerned with visual acuity. Right. If you don't have a lighting designer, you don't have a person on your team whose job it is to make sure that everybody who enters your space, whatever your space is, can function visually. That's our job. At the core of it, and that goes back to that idea of creating a well considered, thoroughly layered environment. Is that. That's. If you don't have that, how does your space function? When I talk to students a lot, I like to pose the question, why does no one get engaged at McDonald's? Why does no one get engaged at McDonald's? And the reason when people say, I don't understand, what do you mean? And I say things like, well, okay, think about a romantic restaurant and think about McDonald's. What's different about them? And then people say french fries. And then people say, McFlurries. And then I say, no, no, what is it about how they look? And we sort of walk through and the thing is, is in McDonald's, there's no expectation of privacy. [00:31:59] Speaker F: Right. [00:32:00] Speaker G: It's flat, it's bright. There's no contrast, there's no separation. [00:32:05] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:32:06] Speaker D: It's a community event. [00:32:07] Speaker G: It is a communal. It's a polygon is the. Is the word I would use. [00:32:12] Speaker F: Right, yeah. [00:32:14] Speaker G: So. But a high end restaurant is a very specific visual environment and a very visually quiet space. And it's a space where you can feel like it's just you and your dinner partner alone in the world. And that's where. Those are the places where we have intimate moments. Intimacy is something that is conveyed visually. And if you have a. A space that needs to convey intimacy or needs to not convey intimacy, you need a lighting professional, someone who's focused on how people take in visual information and what they do with it on your team. [00:32:54] Speaker A: God, it's so good. Right, right, right. No, I mean, this is the essence. And what's interesting is you're using language and Lisa, like the language that we're hearing today from like, theatrical based people versus architectural and engineered based people. But, like, you're. Everybody's still getting to the same end. [00:33:16] Speaker F: Result. [00:33:17] Speaker G: Right. [00:33:17] Speaker A: And what isn't happening is we're not talking about this outside of ourselves. [00:33:24] Speaker G: So I have made a conscious decision. I have stopped by and large applying to speak at lighting centered meetings. And I have started forcing myself to apply to speak at places where first of all, I may not get accepted, which is, you know, it's the ego munchie of always getting accepted to speak is a hard one to let go of. [00:33:43] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:33:44] Speaker G: But it doesn't do me or my firm or the world at large any good for me to stand in a room full of lighting people and say lighting is important. Everybody in the all, I don't know, 700 people here agree that lighting is important. I need to be in a space where people don't necessarily agree with that and I need to be able to explain to them why that's the case. So I am trying really hard to find verticals in which we want to be more active and speak at those conferences. And that's, I mean, that's the hope. [00:34:18] Speaker D: That's really good. I think about Naomi Miller who speaks at the automobile conferences about flicker and tail lights. I think of her every time I see a tail light that's flickering in my driving deal. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and that's ultimately what we're trying to do with the Lighting Matters podcast and some things we're doing inside of ILD and ultimately we hope to in our group get a list of people who want to talk at events and like in my opinion, like as I ald and as a group of firms like flood an AIA conference on architecture with 50 some odd different presentations about lighting where like they're going to have to pick one of them. [00:35:00] Speaker G: Right. [00:35:00] Speaker A: Whereas the last five years they've had zero. [00:35:03] Speaker G: Right. So I have found actually that the AIA specifically is very difficult to crack. It is a very difficult nut. So I love the idea of, I also love the idea of a speaker's bureau of, you know, here are 50 people who have not canned speeches, but who are ready to present at your local whatever meeting about why the visual environment is important, about why lighting design is something you should do about how a lighting designer can help you with your control system, whatever it is. I mean there's so many different, like very sort of low hanging fruit topics that we could go out into the world and talk about. [00:35:43] Speaker F: Yeah, yeah, well. [00:35:44] Speaker A: And then ultimately we're at an IES conference which for us lighting designers is the technical, the science side of this. And I don't know about you, but like for me, you know, I was past president, Chicago section. Like this is where it all comes from, right? Like the, the, the how much, how, how many foot candles maybe should there be, right. Comes out of this, right? And the research and I, I think, you know, the, the, the grander audience, the architects, the lighting designers, the. Excuse me, the architects, the interior designers and the landscape designers don't understand that this exists. And this is like one piece of what we bring to the table to create that visual. [00:36:32] Speaker G: Well, so I just went to a presentation today. It was a research presentation. Every once in a while I like to challenge myself to go to these research presentations and really A, get my geek on and B, follow along with the super technical stuff. [00:36:45] Speaker F: Right. [00:36:45] Speaker D: I know, those are great. [00:36:46] Speaker A: It takes a cup of coffee. [00:36:48] Speaker E: Exactly. [00:36:49] Speaker G: And humbly. Right. It's good to not be the smartest person in the, the room. And so I was listening to this young researcher who had done a placebo controlled study of increased circadian illumination and its effects on an aging population. [00:37:07] Speaker A: Okay, all right, all right. [00:37:08] Speaker G: That has a lot of resonance for me because of course, I am the child of an Asian aging population, right? And someday, I suppose not too far distant in the future, I will be. [00:37:18] Speaker A: An aging population way, way, way, way down the fence. [00:37:23] Speaker G: So, yeah, so, but I was listening and the end results of this guy's research were that by boosting melanopic luminance, they were able to mimic the effects of 30 minutes of sustained activity. Like, yes, it was in that. Right there. They were, I was like, wait a second. You can do with light the same thing that you can do with activity with exercise. [00:37:53] Speaker A: Wait, are you saying that I don't have to get on the peloton? [00:37:56] Speaker G: Well, I don't know. Well, that was. I was sort of like that too. 5000k, no problem. I can do that. The problem was though, I mean, for me, the problem was the light was ugly, right? Like it was a very cool thing. They were able to demonstrate increased cognitive function, better sleep and, and also track things. Like if you get. There was 30%, 30 minutes of sustained activity gave you 10% less reduced chances of something else. Like it was a health come out, a health care outcome. And they were able to demonstrate those similar things, but the light was really ugly. [00:38:38] Speaker D: Well, there's proudness from that to something. [00:38:44] Speaker G: That you want to go there. [00:38:46] Speaker A: But for clarity, was it the, the light production was ugly or the physical luminaire was ugly? [00:38:55] Speaker G: It wasn't the luminaire because basically what they did is they used LED retrofit lamps that were smart Bulbs so they could be programmed. They were using 1600 lumen lamps. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:08] Speaker G: And they were boosting them into the high fives, 6,000 K, like so very, very blue from 8 to a.m. to noon. So it was four hours of very, very, very cold light. And they basically replaced the, the two pendants over the kitchen island and the circular glowy guy, the CG one, the ceiling mounted glowy fixture in. Right. And then they put, for the, that was the standard circadian setup. And then for the enhanced circadian setup, they put in another 5 16, 1600 lumen lamps on top of the upper cabinets. So they got some indirect stuff. So. But it was, it was just so much cold light that I just couldn't really imagine anybody really existing in it. [00:39:56] Speaker A: Wanting to be in that. [00:39:58] Speaker G: But it does seem to work. And if we're talking about, you know, increased incidences of dementia in aging populations and also decrease sensitivity to cooler color temperatures because of the natural yellowing of the, of the optic, you know, the optic system, there's actually, I mean, there's a lot of really interesting actionable data that's coming out of that sort of study. [00:40:25] Speaker F: Right. [00:40:25] Speaker A: And I wonder if you can like, we've played a lot. I wonder if you can have all that 5000k but then fill in with some warmth. [00:40:37] Speaker G: So I think there's that. And I also wonder too about invisible melanopic simulation. [00:40:43] Speaker D: Spectrum. [00:40:44] Speaker G: Yeah, like spectrum stuff. There are a couple different manufacturers who are experimenting with can they boost non visible, shorter wavelengths and get that same melanopic response without warm CCT in a warmer cct. So, and I think that's actually, to me, that's really exciting because then it's like magically. [00:41:01] Speaker D: Yes, right. I like that. [00:41:04] Speaker A: Well, Kim Mercier came to Chicago and did her presentation on the standard that we've talked about on the podcast. And I always forget what it is, the VR or whatever. [00:41:16] Speaker G: 46, the one that they were saying was about to be published was still. [00:41:20] Speaker D: It has been published. [00:41:21] Speaker G: It has been published. [00:41:22] Speaker A: There's an update coming. But ultimately the conversation led to a, like, lead's all about glass and the mechanical system. [00:41:31] Speaker F: Right. [00:41:32] Speaker A: Where this document was saying, well, look, you actually want more sunlight to come in through the glass and you want to increase the cost of your mechanical needs so you can balance the healthy people with light. [00:41:46] Speaker F: Right. [00:41:47] Speaker A: And really you got this triangle now of those three things to have healthy people in a building versus lead, which is pushing you towards glass and mechanical. [00:41:58] Speaker G: Which is why Kevin Hauser just keeps saying over and over again, just go Outside. [00:42:02] Speaker F: Right. [00:42:02] Speaker A: Just go outside. [00:42:03] Speaker G: Just go outside. [00:42:04] Speaker F: Right. [00:42:05] Speaker D: That's what I was thinking when you were talking about the seniors in the 5,000, 6,000 Kelvin spaces. Like, can we just get them outside? And we get the outside. [00:42:12] Speaker A: Just go outside. [00:42:12] Speaker G: Right. But that be. I mean, to be fair, it is 90 degrees outside in LA where we are, and you don't want your 80 something year old mom, dad, great uncle, whatever, walking around in. I mean, it's much more pleasant in 90 degrees in LA than it is in New York or Chicago. But still, still, you really can't. When you're dealing with a vulnerable population. It may be that it, that even though outside is always better, you may have to limit the outside time in order for it to be healthy for them. [00:42:43] Speaker A: Right. And it is interesting that a lot of the research is at the older population, but there's a lot of research now for test scores and students and classrooms and all that other stuff. But the school districts are still putting, you know, $50 two by twos with, with color temperature selections on the back. [00:43:01] Speaker G: Yeah, color temperature selection is a, is a real source spot for me. I just, I don't understand. [00:43:05] Speaker A: Yeah, so, so I think that, like, the key is that this is, this is bringing up these conversations and, and ultimately lighting designers are the people that are, like, bridging that research. Like, oh, yeah, you should do 6,000. Okay, okay. But let's balance that and, you know, coming up with the look that should be right. [00:43:28] Speaker G: Well, you know, it's interesting because somebody recently gifted me some tunable lamps, and I usually, I mean, I have been poo pooing tunable lamps that, you know, that work on an app for years. I mean, I just, I'm like, I don't want to use my phone to turn on my lights. That's why, that's why I have a light switch, really. But I decided to try it and I, I changed the color temperature in my desk area. I moved it colder, and I moved the entry area, which is directly adjacent to where my workspace is. I moved it warmer and it worked. It is so much better. And the combination of the 42 and the 28 or whatever it is, is actually super comfortable. And I'm sort of surprising myself. Every time I turn on the lights, I'm like, oh, this was, you know, it's amazing what a lighting designer can do. Go figure. [00:44:27] Speaker F: Figure. [00:44:29] Speaker D: That's a pretty good conclusion. [00:44:30] Speaker G: Okay. [00:44:31] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:44:32] Speaker A: So, Shoshana, thank you so much for taking a little time to join us. [00:44:36] Speaker G: Thank you, Lisa. [00:44:37] Speaker D: Thank you. You're so fun. [00:44:38] Speaker G: Oh, thank you. [00:44:40] Speaker C: I love Shoshana's take. Time to get outside of the lighting world. [00:44:45] Speaker I: Talk. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Stop talking amongst ourselves and get outside. [00:44:48] Speaker F: Right. [00:44:49] Speaker C: And one of the reasons we have this podcast. [00:44:52] Speaker B: Yeah, Something we're also trying to do. I'm excited about our next guest. I just always love her energy and her perspective on things. What we didn't know when we interviewed her was that she was about to receive a big design award that night. [00:45:06] Speaker D: So that was fun. Well, we're here at the IAS conference with Paige Donell. [00:45:13] Speaker J: Yes. [00:45:13] Speaker D: And tell us about yourself. [00:45:16] Speaker J: Hi, everyone. I'm Paige Donnell. I'm a principal lighting designer at Smith Group, which is an integrated design firm. I have been in the profession for approximately 10 years. Graduated with my master's from Penn State University in architectural engineering. And yeah, I love light. [00:45:35] Speaker D: There you go. And so why did you come to the IES conference? [00:45:39] Speaker J: Great question. Many reasons. I think it's a great place to connect with my peers, to kind of learn what the new cutting edge topics and knowledge sharing efforts are, as well as just to be inspired. I feel like every year I come here and I learn something new. [00:45:57] Speaker D: You have a big takeaway so far from the conference. [00:46:01] Speaker J: Honestly, I was really impressed at the kickstart of the conference this year. I feel like we touched a bit more on the transparency within the IES and the things that we're doing to push forward, like knowledge sharing, education, and sort of this altruistic idea that lighting can improve quality of life for people across the board. So I was really impressed with that kickoff and it's just set the tone to the rest of it. [00:46:32] Speaker A: Thank you for bringing that up. I think it's so amazing what IES does. As somebody who's quite critical of some of our organizations, I think that it is amazing what IES can do and what they are working to build. [00:46:51] Speaker F: Right. [00:46:52] Speaker A: And we talk a lot about art and science. A lighting design. I hate that phrase, but I'm still wrestling with it personally. But this is the science. [00:47:03] Speaker F: Right. [00:47:03] Speaker A: Without which the art is a harder sell. [00:47:08] Speaker F: Absolutely right. [00:47:09] Speaker A: And so this science is just so important to what we do. And this is where you find about. Find out about the latest science. [00:47:17] Speaker J: Exactly. Yeah. The research is, again, cutting edge. This is where we're hearing first that things are being studied. We're getting sneak peeks into the new standards that are coming out and that helps us build policy, which then allows us to have a greater impact as lighting designers in our field. [00:47:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I would really like to see some of our other Organizations do that, like 45 minute state of the organization. [00:47:45] Speaker F: Right. [00:47:45] Speaker A: Not just a president's address, but have different committees come up, talk about what's going on. I mean, the diversity and inclusion committee came up and talked about what they were doing. You know, like just everything that's going on inside of is. It's. I too was very blown away by how much is going on and like what Brianne is doing. [00:48:07] Speaker F: Right. [00:48:07] Speaker A: And what, what Colleen, as our CEO has done in having a new CEO. It's just incredible what this organization does. [00:48:15] Speaker D: It is. And they've had to make some hard decisions lately and you know, they're hanging in there. [00:48:21] Speaker J: And it's the transparency, I think to your point, like we know good things are happening, but the transparency and openness to share that publicly with everyone and get everyone in alignment on the reason decisions are made and the reason why we're prioritizing like certain aspects of the group that add value to the end to us. Right. As designers. I think that was really cool. [00:48:44] Speaker A: So what do you think is the best thing we can do as lighting designers to elevate lighting design? You know, lighting matters. We talk about lighting matters and we wrestle with this constantly, I think amongst ourselves in the. [00:49:02] Speaker F: But how. [00:49:04] Speaker A: What do you think we should do to get to that next level? [00:49:08] Speaker J: That's a great question. Yeah. And you framed it very well too. I think I have a unique perspective, likely because I come from an integrated firm where I'm not out there fighting to win projects. I'm just kind of an in house expert, which is great. But because of that, I feel like I need to be a shepherd of what good design means for projects. So for me it's all about teaching an end user, be it a city, a client, even our internal architects, the value of quality lighting design and what that means. And then also, you know, stepping on the preconceived thought that that just means we're adding money to projects, we're adding complexity. Maintenance is going to be a concern, but kind of teaching them that as design, as lighting designers, we're here to take on the burden of the technical and the science of the light as well as the art, and mix it all together to create a better end product, product for everybody involved. [00:50:10] Speaker A: And I think it's important to the audience and to all of us to remember that like you're in an integrated firm and you're having the same challenges, it's not going to cost that architecture team any money or time to use you because you're on salary and you're there, but you're still wrestling just inside of the firm. The same thing that we're doing as independent firms. Totally to the greater like that we. [00:50:39] Speaker J: All have the same. [00:50:39] Speaker A: Blows me away. [00:50:40] Speaker D: It does. Why? Educate me a little more. How do you get on projects at your firm? [00:50:48] Speaker J: It happens in a couple different ways. Sometimes we're involved in the RFP response, so we're pulling together scope and fees from the onset and then it's getting signed off on. Other times we're not involved in that process and we have to come back retroactively. But again, it's all coming out of one pool of money versus having a consultant and seeing it as like a separate line item. So again, I benefit from that because lighting is a scope item and it has to be done by someone. [00:51:18] Speaker A: So wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. [00:51:20] Speaker G: Say that again. [00:51:21] Speaker A: Let's repeat that because I think that's really important. [00:51:24] Speaker J: Lighting is a critical scope item on any project and somebody has to do it. So again, my challenge is lesser because I'm in an integrated firm. So it's really easy to make a case for. Hey, instead of you trying to wrestle with lighting, let the in house expert handle the science and the art. [00:51:44] Speaker D: Exactly. You're interacting and make their lives easier. [00:51:47] Speaker J: Correct? Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:51:50] Speaker F: I. [00:51:50] Speaker A: It's just like it blows me away that, that it would still exist there. Like it, it's free but you don't want to use it. I, I just like bet. [00:52:02] Speaker D: Do you find certain teams, certain designers tend to lean on the lighting design department more? [00:52:10] Speaker J: I would say probably different markets are more interested in using our services. So for instance, if we have a cultural project, it's a no brainer that the lighting team is going to be involved. Right. But sometimes on a higher education project, for instance, or a healthcare project where like cost is a concern, just having the label of lighting designer gives a preconceived perception to a client that we are adding cost to a project or complexity. Right. A lot of that. [00:52:42] Speaker A: There's exactly what we need to fix as an industry is to remove that connotation associated. [00:52:50] Speaker F: Right. [00:52:50] Speaker A: Like I would argue that a cost conscious job needs a lighting designer even more because we're the don't waste money on lighting. I remember a job, a hospital project we did, we've only done one, but the engineer had designed four two by fours into a like a patient room and it was all fluorescent too. And this was right around LED time, like. And we looked at it, we're like, why do you need this much light? And we showed them like you could just do two and you could do it led. We removed all the fluorescent out of the building, we cut down half of the fixtures in all these rooms. And honestly, it was scope creep. And we just did it because we were like, this is wrong. [00:53:45] Speaker D: You just had to fix it. [00:53:46] Speaker A: We had to fix it. It was so wrong. Yeah, and, but like, there's a case in point. And so we need to have more of these stories that we can share, thus the podcast. But like that there is these opportunities when you bring a professional in to save money, right? [00:54:06] Speaker J: Absolutely. And I think it just improves the project overall. I mean, I have a specific healthcare project that I'm working on and we were involved just in daylighting analysis in the very early, like preliminary design before schematic, and we could help inform patient centric design choices. So how to design so that there's comfort, there's no glare, we're not pulling the shades. We're improving quality of life. And then we're able to layer in like the electric lighting into the space and create more of an integrated circadian supported environment. So it's things like that that they should be common sense. Right? It should be common sense. Instead of having your architect place the lights and probably place too many and. [00:54:50] Speaker D: Yes. Yeah. [00:54:51] Speaker A: Or the engineer call the rep agency who just calls the manufacturer that lays it out and then, and then it comes in because it's too expensive and then it gets ve and just a. [00:55:02] Speaker D: Cheaper product instead of a better design. [00:55:05] Speaker J: And see, I hate. Yeah, I hate that word too. Value engineering. I, I do not use it. I. To me, it just means we are get eliminating value. Essentially, our lighting designer, you're right, can come in and creatively come up with a way to maintain value. [00:55:22] Speaker D: Yes. [00:55:23] Speaker J: With a new solution. [00:55:24] Speaker D: So maintaining value. [00:55:26] Speaker J: Value maintenance. Yeah, maybe that's value maintenance. [00:55:28] Speaker D: That's interesting. There was a plaque on Chip's wall, my old boss that just said value engineering is neither. [00:55:36] Speaker A: Yes, 100%, exactly. Right. I mean, the question we ask all the time in that process is what is the end goal? [00:55:45] Speaker F: Right. [00:55:46] Speaker A: Trying to like, oh, we just needed to be cheaper. No, no, no. Like, what do you. What is the price now and what are you trying to get to? If you can't answer the what you're trying to get to, then you're not doing anything other than trying to find some money. [00:56:01] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. [00:56:03] Speaker A: Oh, that's a whole separate podcast now. [00:56:05] Speaker D: Our blood pressure. [00:56:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. What, what do you think? Just in closing, like, what do you think is the most powerful Thing that light does, right? Like what. What is the impact that light brings? [00:56:25] Speaker J: I think now more than ever, light can be an avenue for us to build connectedness. I think as things have evolved in the past five years, I think people are just striving to be connected. And light has a powerful way, both technically and aesthetically, to move people, to guide people, to bring people together and cultivate spaces where that connectedness can happen. [00:56:54] Speaker F: Love it. [00:56:55] Speaker D: Well, thank you for connecting with us today. [00:56:57] Speaker J: Of course. [00:56:58] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:56:58] Speaker A: Paige, thank you so much. [00:57:00] Speaker J: Thanks for having me. [00:57:01] Speaker D: Awesome. [00:57:02] Speaker C: I said it during the podcast recording with Paige. I. It blows my mind that she can be in a large firm and project managers can use her. Use her services, and she still has to fight to, like, get that. [00:57:20] Speaker A: No, it just amazes me. Amazes me. Does it cost a job anything? [00:57:26] Speaker D: It is. It is amazing. [00:57:28] Speaker B: So, yeah, maybe that gives us some clues about what our. What our effort, what our battle is against really here. Anyway, this is the last guest, and he was an honoree. He was designated a Fellow in the IES during the conference. And you'll be able to tell from just a few minutes of talking, us, talking to him how well, extremely well deserved that designation was for him. You're in for a treat. [00:58:01] Speaker I: Hello. [00:58:02] Speaker D: Hello. I am so excited that we have Paul Gregory here. He was inducted into the ies, Fellows. Whatever. I don't know that they call it the College of Fellows. [00:58:13] Speaker A: I think so. [00:58:14] Speaker D: Fellows designation last night. Congratulations. [00:58:17] Speaker I: Thank you. [00:58:18] Speaker D: And so beyond that, would you like to introduce yourself and tell us why you're here at the conference? [00:58:25] Speaker I: My goodness. Well, I'm Paul Gregory. I'm a lighting designer for 45 years or so, 50 years, and started theatrically and then did entertainment lighting and club lighting for many, many, many years, and then started a company called Focus Lighting 1987. And it's got about 40 designers now, and we design internationally and it's been a great journey. I'm here at IES because, really, the number of interesting and knowledgeable people here is what makes it excellent that the people from Disney that were just speaking were there. I mean, the combined experience of doing large theme parks is. It's a very rarefied group of people, and there were three of them there. And the amount of experience collectively between those huge. And how difficult is the experience? How difficult is the design process? Do you really have to touch every fixture? Do you have to supervise the location of every fixture? It was very interesting in the Dali talk yesterday, the Dali workshop, the amount of knowledge in Larun about a difficult subject in that kind of thing was fascinating. So that part of the convention, the amount of intelligence is here, I find rewarding. [00:59:47] Speaker D: That's fabulous. My conference takeaway so far is actually your speech that you were giving when you accepted your fellow designation, because historically the fellow in the IES has been very technical. And I loved how you talked about as designers, it is technical. We're inventing fixtures, we're devices and things when those products don't exist for us, off the shelf. So I liked where you were going here with your talk last night, your acceptance speech last night. [01:00:18] Speaker I: Thank you. Thank you. In the old days, you did invent things. And you found the sealed beam lamp catalog from General Electric or Sylvania, and it had a 4 by 40 degree lamp that was like a snowmobile headlight that you would use to light shoes in shoe stores. You could light just that band and just that band. And there were things like that that were wonderful. It was an exciting time. [01:00:51] Speaker A: Well, and it's funny, today you talk to like an LED fixture manufacturer and you say, like, I need a beam of light that's this shape. Well, why would you need that? Well, I had it in this par lamp 30 years ago, so why can't I get it now? Out of LEDs, you got this tiny source. Make the source. [01:01:08] Speaker F: Right? [01:01:09] Speaker I: Yeah, it's true. And whether you're coming down to graze something and pick up all the edges of fish scales coming out of a wall or whatever the piece of art is, it's what, what you want, what's going to make it look wonderful. [01:01:21] Speaker F: Right. [01:01:22] Speaker A: I think the other interesting thing about this conference, and you talked a little bit about it last night, is this blending of the art and the science. [01:01:31] Speaker F: Right. [01:01:31] Speaker A: Like, that's the kind of branding, that's what everybody uses. But I think focus and your team has kind of a particular way of talking about how you balance art and science. [01:01:42] Speaker I: Well, it's really the experience of the viewer. It's what you want them to feel when they, when you, when you walk through the forest, as I said last night, and you have the canopy of leaves that's backlit and you have the dappled effect of the light coming through the leaves on the thing. And in the long view, you see a little waterfall and the light hitting the waterfall and sparkle that comes out of it is a picture. It has a frame of focus and foreground in the background. And it makes you feel something. You feel, you know, if you're on a beach and you look up at all the stars, you feel small and Insignificant in the greater scope of the. You feel something and you'll remember the picture because of the emotion. If you can tie the emotion to the image, it's stronger. [01:02:32] Speaker D: Yes. [01:02:33] Speaker I: So if we have a restaurant owner that is trying to have a successful restaurant, and you have friends come to town, where do you want to take them out to? Well, I remember that restaurant well. Why do you remember it? Why? I don't know. It just. I remember. Well, you remember it because there's an emotional relationship that's tied to the picture, and that's what we try and do. And that's not science. No, that's art. When you look at a painting, what's your favorite painting at the Museum of Modern Art? Mondoran. Because of the color. Is it Klimt? Is it. Who knows? [01:03:08] Speaker F: Right. [01:03:09] Speaker D: But it differs the one you remember because of what? Nature Field. [01:03:13] Speaker I: And so what we're trying to do is create memories. Yeah, it went through pictures. Well, it's kind of a theatrical point of view, and it's the way I was taught. And there's the actor on stage, and you're trying to bring out his words and his emotion and have it be a little bigger than life and have people remember it. [01:03:36] Speaker G: Yes. [01:03:38] Speaker A: The other thing we were talking about a little bit last night, too, is trying to get clients to understand what we do. [01:03:45] Speaker F: Right. [01:03:45] Speaker A: Like the convincing an architect. Like, sometimes an architect comes to you because they've worked with you, they know. But other times, like, wait, why do I need photos? Why do I need a lighting designer? How do you approach that? How do we, as an industry get better at that? [01:04:03] Speaker I: Well, I think it's different for every owner. And every architect, every owner, every owner's rep, every general contractor, it's different with all of them. And we look at them individually and we talk with them. What do they like? Where do they like to go? What do they like to do? What do they like to see? What do they enjoy? What's their life like? What's their passion? And maybe it's theater. Well, when you go to the theater, you know, you go in and you sit down and you talk for a bit, and then the house lights go to half and the house lights go out, the orchestra starts to play and follow, spot hits the conductor, and then it's a couple of minutes before the show begins or reveals itself. And you have changed over that time. You've shed some of the stuff of the day. And so as you design the entrance to a hotel, you're trying to make it a great experience. Where does it start. It starts at the car. You get out of the car, and you look at the hotel and you. And when you go into it, are you calmed? A little bit. And then when you look around, like now, and then it was compression. You had a low ceiling, and then you came into a bigger space, and you felt that it was opulent. So how does the. What are you trying to create? What do you think will be successful? Does the owner think that? What does the owner think? And how can you bring them and educate them to a point where they see it? Because sometimes they're really passionate about. I mean, I was doing Le Cirque, and Cereal is with the chef owner. He's passed away, but a wonderful, wonderful man. And Adam Tahani is the designer, and we're there together, and I'm talking. And Serio brings in Warner Leroy. Warner Leroy had Maxwell's Plum, had the Russian Tea Room, and had Tavern on the Green. And he's a. He's a restaurateur. That's a little bit more promotional, a little more flamboyant in design. Cereal at the Circus. Flamboyant with people. [01:06:13] Speaker G: Yes. [01:06:14] Speaker I: But he didn't know the design wasn't his thing. He trusted Adam, and he wasn't sure if he should trust me, so he brought in somebody to check me out and make sure my thoughts would be okay. And then when they were, then we just moved ahead. But I. I couldn't get Serio to see my point of view. And so what he wanted to do is know if he should trust my point of view. [01:06:39] Speaker F: Okay. [01:06:40] Speaker I: But we're. Every owner is different. But what we're trying to do is educate them into. All you see is reflected light. You don't see the column. You don't see that wooden column. You just see the light that bounces off it. [01:06:52] Speaker F: Right. [01:06:52] Speaker I: Are those. What are we trying to create in here? Is this marble floor? Why are there wood columns? Why does this all. Why does every surface go together to create one feeling in the viewer? [01:07:06] Speaker F: Right. [01:07:09] Speaker I: That's what we say to the owner. Like, what are we trying to make everybody feel? We want to make everybody feel something. Is that successful? And you get them to there. [01:07:19] Speaker D: Yes. [01:07:20] Speaker I: And then you say, well, what do we want them to feel when they walk in here? And why does that contribute to that feeling? Why does this traffic pattern. Why does that involve. What's the picture? And we take a project and we say, there are seven viewports, and there was a frame and a focus and a foreground and a background one's across the street looking at the hotel and one's at the front door looking inside. And they're each paintings and that's how we do them. [01:07:50] Speaker D: To me, starting with those kinds of questions would really, I mean, you said the goal is to get that the client has to trust you before they're going to have to go with your vision. But I mean, you're really inviting them in, asking all the right questions. To me, that would be such a great way to earn their trust. [01:08:08] Speaker I: Well, and you can't have success unless you can get them to say what success is. [01:08:15] Speaker F: Right. [01:08:15] Speaker A: Yes. [01:08:16] Speaker I: So perfect. We need them to like we did the Times Square ball. And, and I said, well, you see the Times square ball in three ways. There's the 50 foot view, the 500, the 5 foot view, the 50 foot view and the 550. The 5 foot view is the press standing next to the ball. [01:08:35] Speaker F: Right. [01:08:35] Speaker I: And the 50 foot view is kind of what you see on TV and the 500 foot view as you're standing in the plaza looking up and which is most important. And then once they decided that what do we try to achieve in that view? And they said color and sparkle. We got them to say color and sparkle. So we took the crystal and put the lights under it and said it doesn't sparkle. The problem is the crystal. [01:09:06] Speaker D: Yes. [01:09:06] Speaker I: And we got water for it to back cut the crystal to get more sparkle. And that's why it was successful. But wouldn't have happened if we couldn't have got the owner to say those words. Yeah. [01:09:18] Speaker A: Well, and then I think the other important thing is that it was the team looking at all the things. [01:09:24] Speaker F: Right. [01:09:25] Speaker A: It wasn't just the lighting fixing a problem. [01:09:27] Speaker I: Right. [01:09:27] Speaker A: Discussing it with Waterford. You just it. [01:09:30] Speaker I: Yeah. [01:09:31] Speaker A: We're, we're, we've talked a lot about on the podcast so far that lighting is the fourth visual professional. So we have architects, interior designers, landscape architects and lighting designers. And the lighting designer is the one who puts it all together. We're the one who frame that image. We're the one who create that move. And you can have wood, but you can't see the wood without the light. [01:09:57] Speaker I: Well, and I feel like the lighting designer is the curator of the visual image that he takes all, she takes all those things and puts them together and it will paint it. Nep comes to the question, is the wood right for there. [01:10:15] Speaker A: Agreed. [01:10:16] Speaker I: Yes. I had a knockdown drag out fight with David Rockwell about the Mohegan Casino because he had designed it with these dark wood trees and I wanted birch trees. Because it would take the light so much better. You know, you really wanted. And he said, you shut up above the birch trees or you're up here, and. And. And, you know, it turned out great, and it's wonderful, and it's an excellent place, but you have a belief, and if you think that that's really right for the space, you have to say it. What picture are you trying to create? And visually, now you can. You know, we took for seven for All Mankind lighting black jeans, and they have racks of, you know, all these Black jeans are $150, 250 each, you know, and. And so we made shelving. We lit it from the front, and then we lit the background, and we had a white background and. But we had it in panels, so. So stare at the jeans and you take the white background and you slide it out. There's a black background behind or a gray background, and the jeans pop up. [01:11:35] Speaker D: Okay. [01:11:36] Speaker I: And then you put it back in. And you don't see the stitching because of the contrast. [01:11:41] Speaker D: Right. [01:11:41] Speaker I: That with the white. We saw the white background really strongly, and. And you didn't see the jeans, and it. It's in a. Yeah. Like, how can you educate the client and bring them along to see what you see? [01:11:54] Speaker D: Right. Eddie. We brought gold lighting. Lighting design solutions that were. The solution was change the contrast, not add, not anything. [01:12:03] Speaker F: Right. [01:12:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Thomas Patterson was just talking about a project that he did where you. Out the master bedroom window. There was nothing to look at. [01:12:11] Speaker I: Yeah. [01:12:12] Speaker A: The landscape designer said, I need a tree. Yeah, there needs to be a tree there. [01:12:16] Speaker F: Right. [01:12:16] Speaker A: Like, we're. Exactly. That's the frame. [01:12:18] Speaker I: Yeah. [01:12:18] Speaker A: And. [01:12:19] Speaker I: And that's you in the long view. That's the payoff. [01:12:22] Speaker A: That's the payoff. [01:12:23] Speaker I: Why is it dark? And what's the point? [01:12:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I got. I got a beautiful window with nothing like it. [01:12:27] Speaker I: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Excuse me. Yeah. It's a. A wonderful profession, and a lot of it is defining success and getting the owner's agreement with that. But we're trying to create. What are we trying to create? Is it a, you know, a walk through the woods? Is it a waterfall? Is it a jungle experience? Is it a. Is it nature? Is it not nature? Is it. What is it? [01:13:03] Speaker D: That's great. [01:13:04] Speaker A: Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Congratulations, Early. [01:13:08] Speaker D: Thank you so much. [01:13:08] Speaker I: Thank you. [01:13:10] Speaker C: I think you could tell with Paul's language why Paul is that rock star inside of the lighting world and. And well known for his work and his firm's work throughout the world. [01:13:24] Speaker D: So. [01:13:25] Speaker B: So eloquent. [01:13:26] Speaker C: I mean, his language. [01:13:27] Speaker A: It's. It's. I. [01:13:29] Speaker C: Obviously you all have heard me enough. I wrestle with language at times, but like, ah, I just. Spectacular. And then extending that to all of our guests who took a little time from their conference to join us. It was so amazing. It was so amazing to hear all these different people respond to our questions in slightly different ways, but ultimately come to about the same place for sure. [01:13:58] Speaker B: So Avi, I think that was super fun. I think we should do it again. [01:14:02] Speaker C: Yes, we will be doing it again very soon. We will be in Dallas and we're going to try this again. Hopefully learn from this and see how it goes. If you'd like to join us at one of these shows in the future, reach out to Lisa and I. We'd love to have you on the podcast. [01:14:20] Speaker B: See you next time. Lighting Matters as we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time, and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues. [01:14:45] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. [01:14:51] Speaker C: Our content has general applications, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional. [01:14:57] Speaker A: IALD lighting designer such as RBLD or morelights for your next endeavor.