Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting Matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast.
So excited to be here today for another great conversation. I'm Avi Moore with Moore Lights in Chicago, and I have my esteemed co host with us here today.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Lisa Reed with Reed Burkett lighting design in St. Louis. And I'm really excited to introduce all of you to today's guest.
Someone I've known for 20ish years in St. Louis and we've always done creative record together, so a podcast just seemed like a natural.
This is Joel Foose, who is a principal at Trivers in St. Louis. And Joel, I'll, I'll stop there and let you tell us about yourself and how you got to be where you are today.
[00:01:18] Speaker C: Sure.
Well, thank you, Lisa and Avi, for inviting me to be your guest today.
Yeah, Lisa, I think you're right. We, we go back, we go back a ways to working on some, some fun projects over the last couple decades.
So as you mentioned. Yes, I'm, I'm Joel Foose, principal at Trivers architects here in St. Louis. We're a firm of about 35 architects and interior designers that have, we're celebrating our 50th anniversary this year as a firm.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Congratulations.
[00:01:57] Speaker C: Thank you. And it'll be 10 years since myself and my two partners have had transition and ownership from our firm's founder, Andy trivers back in 2015.
So it's been, it's been a wild ride of 10 years of practicing architecture not only here in St. Louis, we also work nationally as well.
And you know, a foundation of our work, as you know, Lisa, is rooted in adaptive reuse and a specialty in historic, historic work as well. So Andy Trivers first project that he launched as the firm was a adaptive reuse of an old hotel here in St. Louis that was built for the 1904 World's Fair.
And that really has been a mainstay of our practice since. But then we've been able to expand into other markets and do other things and new construction, you know, beyond that. So we really pride ourselves in work that's, you know, mission boat, mission based catalytic type projects that are, their story is really, you know, about what that next chapter is. And we really try to set up, you know, our work for our clients and our buildings to be a Part of that next story that's yet to be written for, for nonprofits, you know, higher ed institutions, private clients, you name it. Spreads the gamut. But anybody who's really trying to make a difference and improve our world for the better.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that's something I've always admired about your firm, is that, that you do have a really intentional practice and you, you cultivate your clients with intentionality. And that's, I think that's really important and impressive.
So, speaking of impressive, I do want to mention you all received a big award this year from aia.
[00:04:11] Speaker C: We did.
It was a project.
Well, it's the project that we're currently in.
The victor, which was formerly known as the Butler Brothers Warehouse, was adaptively reused and converted from a warehouse that was built in 1907 into 384 apartments completed in late 2023.
And it was selected one of eight nationally recognized AA Housing Project Award winners, which, fortunately for us, is the second time in three years that we've been able to achieve such an honor.
And it's been really a wonderful, I guess, culmination of a great project of, you know, sometimes those things just come together in a line. And Lisa, you worked with us on this project and it was, you know, it was just sometimes just things come together and they just click. And this time the client and the contractor and, and us and, you know, what they wanted to do with it and how they wanted to do it, and the time was right and it just created a wonderful project in the end.
[00:05:37] Speaker B: And you kind of, the way you said that, I'm not sure everybody would understand. But you are in that building now. You've moved your offices to that building.
[00:05:46] Speaker C: Yes, yes. We had been in our former office for almost 30 years, and again, the timing was right. Our client had space here to dedicate towards office.
And we felt like it was almost one of the final pieces in the puzzle of, of an ownership transition.
For those of you that are out there, that have gone through that, there's a lot of steps and, you know, there's a lot of pieces to that puzzle. And, you know, we had different, you know, sequence of events that happened throughout our entire transition, some immediate and some longer lasting. And this just felt like the last piece of a puzzle that the three of us were able to re. Establish in a new place, make it our own and, you know, you know, kind of close the door on a chapter where our office had been for nearly three decades.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense.
Congrats. I still haven't seen it I need to get in there and see your, your news face.
So Avi, I'm sure you've got questions for Joel.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Well, I, I wonder in the process. So an adaptive reuse project like you're talking about, you know, I'm not as familiar as you and Lisa are, but I find that at times it's very difficult to convince the owner that they need a Lisa Reed involved in the job.
Did you, did you find that in this project? And how were you able to get them to understand this? Is this is required, necessary, whatever language you used?
[00:07:18] Speaker C: Yeah, so that's a good question because you're right, we do get it. I would say especially in developer driven housing projects where it, there's a lot of factors that go into it, but in the end it's an investment strategy that, you know, people have their investment portfolio, they look to find developers, they're going to put money in that they're going to get X amount of return.
And you know, a lot of times you have to think about, well, what is the investment that you're putting into that project and what is the return you're going to get out of it.
We had, you know, we had a couple of things in our favor on this project.
One, it was, it's being a historic project. It, it qualified for historic tax credits. And in Missouri, the state credits are, are almost equally as robust as the federal credits as well. Depends on how they're allocated and there's some nuance to that. But all in all they essentially double what you can get from the federal credit credit. So any dollar that's spent is really, you know, you're really actually spending, you know, 60 cents of that. So you're saving 40 cents on the dollar in the end. So where, you know, lighting and you know, other things that you would do to enhance the project that might not seem viable or feasible, you're able to spend that because you're able to get this, you know, reduction, you know, on the overhead cost of the project.
The, the other part of that is, I mean the building itself is an extra very architectural piece, has exquisite terracotta detailing.
And we, we lit the building from the exterior facade lighting and then into the lobby itself. And you know, it just when people come in and well, one, when they see the building from the outside, they come inside.
You're able to highlight these, you know, aspects of it. You know, you're able to shine light on these, you know, elements that, you know, show board form, concrete and, and plaster and you know, and none of it's like pristine is this kind of storytelling of time and sequence, of a process or just, you know, the degradation in over century or, you know, a century of being in existence.
So the lighting then enhances that. So when people come in, they then get connected to the story, even a little deep.
So that's what these. These projects are incredible because they touch people in a way that you normally wouldn't get to have that. And, you know, especially walking around at night when it was a neighborhood that was, you know, pretty quiet and, you know, not a whole lot going on. I would say sleepy more than quiet. And now you have this building, its entire city block, it's lit from the outside. It says, something's here, people are here, there's life here. It. And it shows this exquisite architectural detailing that, you know, we're fortunate to have here in St. Louis. So if. If we weren't able to spend that money on the lighting, you know, the building would be able to shine to the level that it does.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: You know, lighting designers love hearing you say that.
[00:10:46] Speaker C: That's a ton.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Such a great quote.
But.
But I don't think I've ever heard anybody talk about using historic tax credits. Just.
I don't know if people think about it in that way, but, you know, we've got tax credits, so we can afford to bring in this consultant that maybe we otherwise couldn't because it doesn't cost as much.
I don't know if everybody thinks of it that way. I liked that.
[00:11:13] Speaker C: Yeah, it. It helps that you have a client that's done it before. They, they know that these things are important, you know, especially when you're trying to, you know, in the end, trying to get as high of a rental rate as.
As possible.
And so if you offer ordinary products or an ordinary living space, you're going to get ordinary rent. So you, you can't sit here and ask somebody to pay, you know, 20% more over what somebody has across the street if you can't show that it's a 20% better or more experience than what you have.
So, you know, I thank our client for being able to recognize that and understand that that's, you know, really an important piece to making it work and.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Just drawing that line. I've heard Avi do it plenty of times on just that. You know, as much as designers, as we like to think about it being about the integrity of the design, ultimately, you've got to draw that line to the money. And why is. Where's the financial benefit of doing this?
[00:12:22] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: We we are working for people who are working for profit, gain, rest, whatever it is. Right.
Joel, you said it. You said it better than I've ever been able to say, which is, you know, it's. It's money in. And there's a certain amount of money you're going to get out of it, and it has to work. If it doesn't work, the project doesn't happen.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:48] Speaker C: And in. We've talked a lot internally about.
I mean, if you really want to be true to the essence of a project, you know, unfortunately, you know, we. We've had the circumstance to be able to work on things that are meaningful, but to really understand or boil it down to, you know, when we talk about Ve, we really talk about it as like, all right, we're talking about editing to the project of the. Its essentials, you know, and Lisa and I are working on another hospitality project here in St. Louis where, you know, there was more that we wanted to do to it, but we sat down and talked to, you know, the. The nonprofit group. We talked to their. Their docents for their gallery. Like, what, you know, what is it that you're really trying to do and what can we offer you as kind of that, you know, the. I would say the bare bones, but the quintessential needs that, you know, support the mission for the project.
And if it doesn't support the mission for the project, then it can probably go, yeah, it would be nice to have, but is it essential? You know, probably not. And then I think then you can really get down to it and say, all right, we're left with a project that is really about supporting the end goal of the project.
And to me, I feel good about being able to go in the bed, like, all right, we. This wasn't just icing on the cake. This was the cake. And then you really know, like, we needed to do this because, you know, X, Y and Z are the goals that we set out to achieve.
So I'm. I'm trying to recapture what ve means, and I'm. I'm. I felt like it's gotten so messed up over the, you know, last decade. I would say, and really say that it's. It's just a distillation process. It's an editing process to get to the. The center of what a project really is about.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: I love it. Yeah, it's.
Ve. Has. I. I couldn't agree with you more. It's become this. How do we just make it cheaper, right, that. That, you know, you have to start and you said you have to start with the goal. What is the goal?
Not only the goal of the project, but what's the goal of the dollars? What. Where are we trying to get to? We're just trying to put more money in somebody's pocket. Or is it, you know, this, that, or the other? Right. And, and often I find we've talked about this on the podcast. It's lighting's too expensive, but we're still going to keep the Carrera marble floor.
Okay. I mean, I can, I can list off a few places that have green Home Depot. I should say green. Somebody's LEDs on beautiful marble.
Okay, but what if we went and bought porcelain tile that looked like that and, and lit it with just a little bit better light? Like, hey, look, we just massively saved cost.
Is that what you wanted? Right. And then, of course, I'm not a finished flooring person, but tile, it's easy.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: For us to cut the floors, but.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: But I mean, it has just gone down this path of making it cheaper versus having a conversation. I love this idea. Distillation and editing.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: Editing, Right.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Getting to the essence.
[00:16:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: I think I've learned, if I've learned anything from doing all of these podcast interviews, it's, it's the people who can really use language to express that type of. To clients. Like, like what you just said. Even the, you know, it's not the icing on the cake. It is the cake. Like, using analogies can go so far with people who aren't in the AEC world all the time. Like, we are. And just those, those word pictures can really help get you what you want as a designer.
[00:16:49] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, in the end, you're trying to build a consensus and, you know, you know, we, you to your point, we work for people.
They answer to people as well. And so, you know, how do you, how do you just get to the core of what that is?
[00:17:07] Speaker A: So, yeah, yeah, I, I, One of my favorite stories, we were working for a vacuum company and they wanted the lighting cheaper. And they asked me, like, what style is this? And I said, well, you're a premium brand, and that is equal to this premium lighting brand. I'm trying not to use names to protect everybody. But then I said, then there is the, you know, shoppers club vacuum. And then there's the thing you find on some website.
We're specifying that thing in the middle. It's like, well, what's so bad about the stuff you find on a website? Right? But like, you could at least have that conversation with somebody and explain it in a language that they understand. Or we've used Maseratis, Lexus, Toyota Yugos. Right. Like things that people could connect to and understand. Right. That Toyota is gonna last forever, you know, but do you need the Lexus? Because you have to impress, right?
[00:18:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:11] Speaker A: How does that.
[00:18:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: But I kind of want to get back though, Joel. So in this scenario, this was a client who understood what lighting was going to do, had some tax incentives. How as you're working on other projects and how are you talking to them about the need for a lighting designer?
This isn't the icing on the cake. This is something that has to get done and you need a professional.
How do you explain that?
[00:18:45] Speaker C: Well, you started going there a little bit when you were talking about the marble and then having this bad light. I mean we talk about it all the time in the office that we can design an incredible space, materiality, work, you know, circulation, flow, aesthetics, views to the outdoors. I mean all these things, you turn the lights on, it kills it. I mean it can kill all of it. You know, it going back to analogies, it was like going to the, the bar, you know, at when you were in college and you know, they turn all the house lights on and you know, just brewing the mood. Everybody leave. You know, because it was such a stark change to the mood that was set before that, that it's like, ah, you don't even want to be here. And is this the seat I was sitting on all night? It looks horrible. So like, you know, the just the simple, the light levels, the light qualities, you know, I mean just having those conversations of like, we can do everything that we can as architects and interiors, interior designers, landscape architects. And then if the lighting isn't there or is actually quite even worse, is done. But in a horrible way, you've just undercut the value that you put into everything else.
So, you know, it, it can, it can enhance or it can actually detract from the investment that you've already put into it.
I've got, I've got a couple Mike. So I've got a 17 year old and a 14 year old and they've been around me a while.
So, you know, all their years, all them, all their lives. So a few vacations and they remember, you know, we had a vacation maybe four years ago where we went to an Airbnb and they had, you know, 4500 kelvin lights all over.
And you know, the first thing I did is I turned around and I went to the local store and bought all new bulbs and then swapped them all out. Because I'm like, if I'm going to be here a week, I don't want to be miserable, miserable for a week. And now my kids go by, we drive by neighborhood houses and there's, you know, four, 500 or 5,000 Kelvin bulbs that people put in and they, like, point it out. They're like, that's awful. Like, why would. You know? And I don't think a lot of people know either. You know, they're not, they're not aware of that, that it is. There's so much more you can do with your space.
But, you know, we have the same conversations as architects and sometimes you don't see it because it's right in front of you. So I think there's a lot of conversations you have to have with folks to kind of educate them, like, why it's important, what the need is, and that you can, like I said before, you can undo everything that you've done, you know, putting into it, you know, by getting the lighting wrong.
[00:21:56] Speaker B: Well, and it was actually, it was someone at your firm who talked to me one time about talking to clients, or in our case, you know, even architects and other design professionals about how the space is going to make them feel. Because when you start talking about 5000 kelvin or 2700 kelvin or, I don't know, 30 degrees or 60 degrees or, you know, whatever, 90 cri, you know, if you're outside of that, our industry, you're going to gloss over. It doesn't, you know, but if you talk to them about how it makes you feel feel, then that's something everybody can relate to.
I was at a conference recently where we were trying to solve lighting problems and someone suggested that we do it. Like in the cannabis industry, where you see the product, there are all these products and it'll tell you how it's going to make you feel. And that's how we need to talk about lighting. Instead of, instead of, you know, 3,000 Kelvin and 5,000 Kelvin, it's, well, this one's going to make you feel relaxed and this one's going to make you feel energized. And this one's.
[00:23:04] Speaker C: Yeah, sure.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: I mean, it was a good suggestion.
[00:23:10] Speaker C: I know exactly what you're talking about, and I hadn't thought about it that way, but yeah, it does.
I mean, it comes down to a feeling that you, that you get when you're, when you're surrounded by it.
Another part of that is, I mean, I remember when I Started practicing and, you know, we're designing, you know, the space for lights and, you know, recessed lighting specifically. And, you know, it just be massive amounts of space. And the things now you can do. I mean, you look at like, designs and automobiles and what you can do with lights and with how that's revolutionized the look of an automobile over the last.
Within 10 years, you know, five to seven years.
What we can do now with a technology of light and the opportunities that we have to light elements that we wouldn't have been able to fit before and how we can do that now. And you know, Lisa, we. We just had the conversation on. On the project we're working on currently, right about even the way we're where turning the orientation of that light and the reflection on the COVID that it. You know, the difference between the two pictures was like, you know, this is the feel that we want. This is the look that we want just by doing that simple change. But that detail is so thin and so minimal. We wouldn't have been able to do that detail, you know, seven, five years ago without, you know, something even more substantial.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: You'd have to build something around it in the past.
[00:24:45] Speaker C: Right now we can just.
Right. And it's like, no. Keeping up with that technology is really incredible.
And knowing what all those fixtures can do and the controls behind them are a whole nother thing inside of itself, that has been such a revolutionary change that I think it's really hard for architects, you know, and interior designers to keep up with that just by themselves. You know, I think we have a pretty good sense of, you know, we like the. This certain aesthetic of a light fixture, you know, the way it looks in a space, but the performance that it has and the controls that it has and, you know, all these other aspects that lighting design, you know, lighting designers are trained to know and figure out is really something we start leaning folks on.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Well, and Joel, and I wonder, does having Lisa and her team working with you, you know, you get another creative partner, right? And another look at how the space might feel. I know on some of our projects, we've been given that creative design rendering right before you even get to schematic from the architects. And they're like. And I'm like, yeah, that's interesting.
But. But, you know, can we have a conversation about this? And what if we did this and blow it all up and all of a sudden it's like, wow. Yeah, well, you know, if we did this and that little coat, right, like having that additional creative partner, I think is really valuable, too.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Something I think we end up pointing out a lot is, hey, you've got a terminus of a long view here. Are you going to have art there? You're going to have a sculpture there? Is there something. You know, and that's just something that. Because that's something we' looking out for. I feel like often we'll point something like that out and the team just hasn't gotten there yet. The design team hasn't. But.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it. Yeah. And it starts on the exterior.
You know, I remember Talking to Lisa 10 years ago on a project we did for a exterior gallery or a new gallery at a sculpture park, and just talking about setting up the tone on the outside of the building, you know, and that's, you know, that's how you engage first. Right. And then you come inside and then you have these layers of, of. Of experiential moments with the building and different, different moments. So we, as a firm, I would say, you know, we're thinking about design and totality. You know, it's. It's the landscape, it's the interior design, it's the architectures, the lighting design. It's. It's all of that coming together.
And, you know, those make the most successful projects. Not that you, like, miss something or you're like, too bad they didn't think about that, you know, so.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: So. Oh, go ahead, Lisa.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Oh, I was just. You.
I don't have a fully formulated question, so let me just throw this out there. But when, when we, when we work together and it's that collaboration, maybe building on what Avi just said, it's. It's building and hopefully elevating your design. Not that lighting design is doing anything spectacular in and of itself, but it's the collaboration and the working together that makes it better. And I guess what I was going to say is as. As a FIRM Here in St. Louis, not everybody engages lighting designers. Like, you're one of the few who does. And I think I, I don't want to, like, I was just gonna say, like, it shows your. Your work is elevated because, you know, you're bringing in specialists of all kinds, not just even dust lighting, like you just said.
I don't know if that's a question.
[00:28:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I know. It's interesting. We had another question.
We, we had some podcasts that people are, you know, with surrounding our 50th anniversary. And, you know, we had. The question was asked, you know, what.
What do you see the change of architecture, you know, being made upcoming and. Or what changes have you seen? And, you know, outside of dealing with our climate and energy and, you know, selecting lighting that is efficient and the controls and, I mean, all of that, that goes into energy savings. That's a whole other conversation. But my point on that was to your. To maybe what you were saying, Lisa, was, you know, this. The idea of kind of the master architect that comes in and proclaims the design as X and then says everybody else has to, like, fall in line with that.
There's a vision there. Yes, but it's working with everybody. I'm like, hey, well, what can we do to do this and how can we add to it? And so I think you have to set yourself up for, you know, an openness to. To hear what other people say. And, you know, and you do have to weigh that, you know, with all of these things and understand, well, where. Where does that best fit? And, you know, Lisa and I have plenty of debates between ourselves and between our teams of, like, how much of this that we can do to really achieve what we want to do. Going back to the prior conversation, but I just don't think there's place, at least in the way we practice for just somebody to say it has to be this.
And, you know, we're going to kind of shut down any other dialogue about what other people think. And so it's bringing that into the conversation that I think makes the projects more rich, more meaningful, you know, more connected. I think there's more ownership, the design team all around that I think people feel that they have with the work. So, you know, I think that's a little bit of what we try to foster. And I think if everybody's got a little bit of that ownership in the project, it just goes, you know, a little smoother.
[00:30:54] Speaker A: Well, and I would say, like, so much more successful. We've been on projects with both kinds of folks. This is the way it shall be, and this is why it's going to work.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: It's like.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: Okay, you know, we can.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Fall in line if you want us to.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. You want us to just go do that thing that's 20 years old.
[00:31:16] Speaker C: Sure.
And we, you know, Lisa and I, I mean, we've had plenty of debates of where we see things in a different way on it, and I think we have a robust conversation about it.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: That's. Robust is a good word. That's different than.
Than what Avi's describing.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Well, yeah, yeah, no, the robust conversation. And, you know, I always.
My. My favorite robust conversation is the argument with the sprinkler head design that has to put the sprinkler head directly over the elevator door. It's like, you don't have to be right there, but the light has to be right there for this design.
Yeah, but it's already installed.
Okay, well, you know, like, so it leads me actually to a question. You've kind of talked about this, but I want to get your feeling. We've, you know, we're in to 25 episodes, and what we've kind of coined in the process is that there are four main visual design professionals in the built environment.
And it starts with architecture, interior architects, landscape architects, and then lighting designers who bring it all together.
Are we missing something in that? Would you agree to that?
[00:32:46] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, as an architect, I might, you know, I might see that a little differently because I think when people ask us about what, you know, what. What does an architect do? And Lisa's might have heard me, maybe have heard me say this.
You know, I think there's.
I refer to us as the conductor of an orchestra. You know, we don't have to play each inch. You know, we don't have to know what every light fixture does, you know, and how it performs and how many watts it's pulling and, you know, where the controls are. You know, we haven't. Have to have an understanding of what it. What it sounds like, to stay with the metaphor, but we don't know. We don't have to learn how to play it, you know, and that goes for each discipline. I would probably add engineers to that because, you know, the. The mechanical, the plumbing, you know, the electrical engineering side is another aspect that I would put into the design component that we.
We think of and what we think of when we put into that mix.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: So as a. As a visual, just to push back on that a little bit, Joel, and, And we've had people mention structural engineers particularly, can have a real impact on the visual environment. But yeah, you think the mechanical and electrical impact, the visual environment, I think they can to.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: To the degree of, like, if it doesn't work well, like it should. People. People notice. Or if the. If you have a mechanical engineer that's not cooperative with the design approach and isn't thinking about where the lights go, where the, you know, where the sprinkler head goes, how the ceilings are organized, you know, you. You could be fighting that tooth and nail for the duration of a project that really impacts diffuser layouts and sprinkler head layouts, exit sign locations, you know, other things that, you know, we mark up and push back, but, you know, in the end, somebody else needs a place too.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: I know every time. Every time you say that, Avi, I think about the fire alarm strobes and how if those could just be organized with everything else and not just randomly placed on the wall.
[00:35:12] Speaker C: So we just had a debate on this. It's interestingly so. We just had a debate on this. I think another project we're working on together down the street downtown here, the fire strobes came up, and they're going onto a bronze ceiling, and the only two colors they can offer are white and red. And so we're debating in the visual, like, well, how is the red gonna look on a bronze or how's the white gonna look on a bronze? You know, what. You know, what are we left with? How are we going to. You know, we had a. You know, we had a draw in the office of, like, we had some folks that said red and some folks that said white.
So, you know, at some point, you have to make a decision and go with it. But I vote red.
[00:35:54] Speaker B: I think I vote red.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: I. Wow. You get white. That's nice.
We get red.
[00:36:00] Speaker B: Oh, you only get red.
[00:36:03] Speaker C: Yeah, we get to. Yeah, we do get to vote on that then. So we're considered lucky.
Yeah.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: We're working on a project where the owners in London and he's approving the pricing for all the light fixtures. And he's like, why is the exit sign $350?
It's like, because there's two people that make them for Chicago. They can be any color you want as long as they are white with red letters on glass in a metal box.
[00:36:33] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:36:33] Speaker A: At 5,000K.
[00:36:35] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: Like, this is the way it is. He's like, 350. Exit sign. Like, yeah.
[00:36:41] Speaker C: Wow. There you go.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: That's Chicago.
[00:36:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
But, you know, it's those. It's those details that I think are so important, aligning all those things. But I guess in my simple explanation, the architect is architecting that visual to the mechanical and electrical outlets and sprinkler head locations and creating a visual language with the interior designer, as opposed to. At least in my experience, a lot of the engineers that we've worked with are very much in, this is what we need.
Here's some ways of doing it. How do you want it done? And they're really going to the interior designer and the architect to say, this is what we need. You tell us where you want this done, and we'll tell you if that works or not.
[00:37:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:47] Speaker A: So that's why I kind of simplify it.
[00:37:49] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I, that makes, that makes sense. That makes sense, Avi. You know, thinking about really the end product.
It's like that stuff you don't see, like, when it's done really well, you don't see it. And to your point, that if that vision is coming from, you know, somebody who's authoring it or saying this is the end goal, and if you've got somebody on board to help make that happen, you know, they're, to your point, they're, they're executing somebody else's vision for that. So, you know, I, I, yeah, I, I see that point.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: I mean, I, I'll tell you, we're working on a resi. This residential project, and the mechanical engineer came up with a brilliant idea on how to hide the supply for the room. Gold leaf ceilings with, you know, a cornice that's maybe four and a half feet tall. I mean, it's crazy detailing and there won't be any supplies. Right. And what he was able to bring to the team, but it came from a vision from the interior, saying, I don't want to see any of this. I don't want to see any of it. And we're not just going to gold leaf the metal return.
It's not going to happen. Like, go find me the solution.
[00:39:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking. I think it was a project you and I worked together on too, Joel, but of a really, a really intriguing diffuser that, that was sculptural and beautiful and, you know, like the, you can certainly have good partners in your MEP or your engineers who are aware of the visual impact that they're making. And that's what, that's what we really want is.
[00:39:34] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: And I, I think, Joel, you bring up a good point, though, that there are these, you know, if I, again, with your approval, this kind of idea that there's these four visual professionals that help with the final, like, feeling. But that's not to be forgotten by the multitude of people involved, such as mep, fp, acoustic structure, and all these other things that have to play in to creating that vision.
[00:40:07] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I'm on.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: Maybe that's right.
[00:40:13] Speaker A: Like to have that.
[00:40:14] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm on board.
[00:40:18] Speaker B: We're not going any further until you agree.
[00:40:21] Speaker A: No, no, yeah. Joel has to approve it before this becomes the.
[00:40:24] Speaker C: We're going to do all good.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Well, I guess as, as we wrap up, we always like to ask our guests about their favorite illuminated space. And this can be Multiple spaces, it's very difficult to pick one.
But a space that really speaks to you, and it doesn't have to be physical. It could be.
[00:40:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: You know, a space that you've been. That you're just like, this is.
[00:40:54] Speaker C: Oh, gosh.
You know, I was trying to rack my brain thinking about a lot of this, and I. It honestly ranged from my den, which I was like, you know, curated and have backlighting, and I mean, I put in dimmers in my entire house because I'm like, it's got to be controlled, right? So, you know, it's where we kind of, you know, watch tv, you know, as a family, and we've got a fireplace, and so you've got kinetic light and all this. You know, it's. It's very curated from that aspect. So I was like, that's kind of my first. Like, that makes me just feel good when I'm at home.
But when I'm. I was thinking about this in. In more of the. The public realm, you know, this is one of Lisa's firms, you know, projects. The. The lighting of the St. Louis Arch is incredible. I mean, it's an incredible monument seen at night with the crispness of the new light that's on it and the way it tracks up the legs and like, just it. There's. It is pinpointed on the arch itself, and it's, you know, 630ft tall. You know, it's. It's not an easy. Not an easy task to. To, you know, make it look so even.
It really is incredible. So that. That's another one that just comes to mind. And obviously a little St. Louis bias on that as well. But another one I think we worked on as well, Lisa, if I don't. If I remember correctly, are the. Is the Turkish Pavilion at Tower Grove Park.
And if you're not familiar, it's.
It's a historic Victorian park in St. Louis that has all these, you know, pavilions from the 19th century.
And this one specifically, it's called the Turkish Pavilion and has a red and white roof, painted roof, striped. It looks like, you know, clown pants, you know, put on top of it.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: And it's this curving shape.
[00:43:15] Speaker C: Yeah, it's got this beautiful curve to it, and it's, you know, it's pretty big. I don't know what. It's 50ft, 60ft across, you know, at the base. Lisa.
But seeing that maybe 200 yards away, and it's just. The light is just illuminating the entire hat to this. And you see it through the park.
And the park otherwise has been pretty dark. You know, it has some street lights and things like that, but, like, these pavilions are dotted throughout the park.
And seeing now that we're starting to illuminate these pavilions as we. As we restore them, there's this, like, play and just this, like, moment of joy that's kind of dropped in the dead of night, and you just see that, and it just sits there as its own little, I don't know, nod, you know, and you can see it, you know, from. Like I said, from. From 200 yards away and in the dead of night is. It's just.
I think I'm a sucker for exterior night lighting. I just. I love it, especially through the trees. And I don't know. That one always just spoke to me in a different way.
[00:44:32] Speaker B: I like that.
[00:44:33] Speaker A: I. I find it amazing, Joel, if. If that just about every guest we've asked this question to talks about something through trees, amongst trees.
It is.
I think we had, like, stained glass conversation, Right. Like, it's an dapple of light.
Right? So you're talking about seeing this pavilion through the trees and then it present that, like.
It's just. I find it so amazing that the spaces that our guests. And honestly, that I love as well are these almost natural environments with an. With a electric piece to it. I try to avoid. I don't like the phrase artificial light, but that electric light and daylight and nature kind of mixing and creating an experience.
It's just fascinating. I find it very fascinating that the same things. The themes. Same themes keep coming up. It's just spectacular.
[00:45:41] Speaker C: Well, I. I was thinking when you said dapple and you were talking about the role of lighting engineers in lighting designers. I'm sorry, More specifically, that it's. It's like a chef, right? It's like you can over season a dish if you, you know, give it too much. You're like, all right, it's just pump it full of light and. But if it's just given just enough, you know, just enough that it makes a difference and it catches your eye, or when you're consuming it, it just feels just right, you know, it's. It's just a little bit a dapple, and that's all you need.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: Oh, I love that.
I think that's the perfect. I think that's the perfect ending.
I really appreciate you, Joel, taking the time to come nerd out with us about light and lighting and just. Yeah. Appreciate all the fun conversations and collaborations through the years, but especially today, out loud, for everyone to hear.
[00:46:48] Speaker C: Yeah, it's fun to do. You know, you're right. We don't get to just talk about what we've chosen to do as a profession too often. It's all the other stuff that we are stuck doing.
So thank you for the invitation to do so.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:07] Speaker C: Awesome. Okay.
[00:47:08] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:47:09] Speaker C: All right, thanks guys.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Lighting Matters as we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time, and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues.
[00:47:29] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional IALD lighting designer, such as RBLD or More Lights for your next endeavor.
