Episode 9: Shaping Cities, Preserving Skies

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting Matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design. [00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Hi everybody. Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. I'm Avraham Moore with more light. [00:00:32] Speaker B: And I'm Lisa Reed with Reid Burkitt lighting design in St. Louis. And I'm so excited to bring my friend as a guest onto this podcast. Brittany Lynch. [00:00:42] Speaker C: Yes. Hi, my name's Brittany Lynch. I am a senior associate designer at Clinton and Associates. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah, this costs a little something to put together and we're very lucky to have a sponsor today in Barco Lighting. Great company back of the day doing all that fluorescent cove stuff without the shock at shadows and now turning into a really reputable linear LED manufacturer. Great products. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Well, I have some good memories. They were a really wonderful sponsor of one of our emerging professionals days at the IES conference and they sponsored and they brought the eps out and gave them a factory tour and all kinds of, all kinds of swag. And I just remember that so fondly. It was really a great day. And then of course the products. I have a couple of recent projects. I was just telling you guys about the modified custom product that they made for us that was shallow and wide to fit perfectly into a structural element at an outdoor Metrolink station. And they even chamfered the corners to accommodate the structural welds so it would just fit perfectly so snugly. It's so beautiful still to this day. So we've been really happy with them. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I've found that they are very helpful when you need that slight modification. We actually just looking through the products, reminding myself we have a bunch of their stuff on a project that is going out to bid soon. So excited to have them as a sponsor today. Brittany, have you used their product at all or had any experience? [00:02:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I think when first when leds were hitting the market, Barco was the first to provide like the linear products that we trusted in terms of, you know, color matching and binning and all of those really those early issues we were seeing throughout lighting manufacturers having problems with that and Barco just really seemed to step into that role and it was like very quickly a super trusted linear manufacturer that provides custom solutions that you need and really fantastic product support. So great things to say about bartco. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, we really appreciate them being sponsors today. So Brittany, we always like to start with a little bit of so how'd you get here? Right, I know. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Sorry. I wasn't sure if I should get into that right away or what. [00:03:10] Speaker B: Yeah, no, let's start at the beginning. [00:03:12] Speaker C: Okay. My story of how did I get into lighting design. So, you know, like, every child who wants to do architecture, they go or they see Frank Lloyd Wright. So for me, it was like that instance of seeing falling water on this on the art history slideshow in sixth grade. I was like, this is what I need to do. And I've always been very spatially oriented. Like, I have memories of being a kindergartner and rearranging the furniture in my room, which now, after having two kids, I realize that's weird. [00:03:48] Speaker B: I didn't even know that. Yeah, you're right. My kids never rearranged their room either. But I did it all the time. [00:03:57] Speaker C: Yes. So immediately, the way that space works. And like, as a kid, you know, I wasn't sketching my dog. I was sketching leprechaun houses. And so all of these things sort of built on each other. And I found myself in architecture school. I think the sneaky thing how everything worked out was the lighting part. And I think that was definitely a trajectory I was probably always destined for. Like, in high school, I played volleyball, and I would base my favorite gems on the lighting. So that was like a thing. And then also, I was. I was playing with lights all over my room when I was a kid. So it was eventually going to be a path I was going to stumble into, you know? And the reason why I really got into lighting is kind of fun because I graduated in 2009 with an architecture degree. Bachelor's of architecture from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. I think the irony is I was like, no, I'm not going to go to the lighting research center and get a one year master's, because you can do that there. I was like, I'm done with school. And that was the recession, and there was no place that would hire anybody. It was. It was hard. And so I found myself working for this small nonprofit that did energy audits for the utility. And in that role, I was able to, you know, use my math brain and do energy calculations, my architecture brain, to understand the building systems. But what really was fun was the lighting part. So I found myself after a few years there teaching myself lighting because I thought it was so interesting. And I was in Montana, and we were looking at what credentials could you get to be a lighting person? What does that even mean? And it was like, oh, you can be lighting Certified. And I looked at the register and, like, back in 2012, I think there was only one other person who was lighting certified in Montana. And so that also meant that the nearest place they gave the one exam a year was over in Seattle. So I see these things and I, like, have this plan, you know, and I. That was when we had, like, the doorstop for the handbook. The lighting handbook. [00:06:07] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:06:07] Speaker C: And so. [00:06:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:06:09] Speaker C: Essentially. Yeah, essentially. I read that book. I was like, this is what I need to do. [00:06:15] Speaker A: And imagine reading that thing I did. Oh, my gosh. [00:06:20] Speaker C: You know, it's like, if I want to learn, like, this is what I need to do. And it was really helpful. But the most interesting part of all of it is they only give you one exam in person per year. And I really wanted to get this done. And the exam was given beginning of November, and I was due as my first child on December 1st. So the only way for me to get my lighting certification was for me to hop on a plane 36 weeks pregnant, go take an exam, and come back. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Wow. [00:06:53] Speaker C: I mean, it's not as bad as you think, because it was one flight, but, you know, like, that's what you gotta do. [00:07:01] Speaker A: Two flights, there and back. [00:07:03] Speaker C: Yeah, it was very swollen. Wouldn't recommend it. [00:07:07] Speaker B: But that speaks to. Oh, my gosh, Brittany. How you and I have gotten to know each other is through being moms in this demanding profession of lighting design. And there you were before you were really in the profession. You were. You were dealing with that. Carrying. Both things. Carrying and the work. [00:07:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you know, you just like, this is what you do. This is what you have to do. I just accepted it, you know, and it was funny. Like, in the delivery room, I'm telling. Because I had to negotiate with my ob. Gyn let me go on this trip, and, like, you know, the baby's coming. And I was like, hey, guess what? He's like, you're having a baby. I'm like, no, I passed the lcd. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Oh, God, you're nerdier than I thought. [00:07:54] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, I think I've, like, leveled out with children, that part of me. But it's, you know. So I think that's a fun story. And, like, from there, lighting was my thing, and I moved on to work for a lighting manufacturer. And then I really moved into the lighting design industry. And it's great. I love it. It's meant to be, and it's so fulfilling. So that's my story. [00:08:20] Speaker B: Well, because you and I have Talked so much about the practice and doing the work and being a woman in this industry and being a mother in this industry. I wanted you, I told Avi I'd like Brittany to come on and talk about her work. You know, you're kind of known, you've really carved out a place for yourself in our industry as an advocate for mothers. But I also know that you're an awesome lighting designer and that you do incredible work. So I wanted you to come on and talk about your work this time for a change. [00:08:50] Speaker C: So I moved to Clanton and associates back in 2019 with the very purposeful thought that I wanted to make a difference in our industry on a level that is really broad. And I saw a talk from Nancy about the model lighting ordinance I think in 2017. And I thought, dang, this is a really good way to make a positive impact for lighting in communities. Like I, of course I love. Okay, I think we got this out of the way. I'm an artist, I love the spatial. You know how did like all of that, love it. But I was like, how can I actually make a difference? And when I was at Lamp Partners working with Glenn Heinmiller, we got a lot of fun on the energy part of things which. Okay, yes, it is fun and it was right at the cusp of, of ashrae adjusting the LPDs and really like tightening up our energy saving, like really grabbing those, that low hanging fruit. But I saw that as like that that chapter is closing and we kind of see we can do, we can do that with, with LEDs. What's the next thing that, where I can do have impact and it really is this dark sky piece and lighting ordinances. And so I made the move to Clanton and Associates because I wanted to participate and as best I could be in that conversation and be in that work. So that's really where I'm landing now. And I have some interesting stories or perspectives to share too on that front. But that's where my passion is right now for sure. [00:10:23] Speaker A: So share. So share. [00:10:28] Speaker C: Yes. Okay. So another thing to keep in mind is I'm from Montana, so I grew up looking at the Milky Way. Not a big deal. My husband, my, you know, when he came out when he was, you know, we were dating, he was just staring at the sky and I'm like, you're crazy. What are you doing? Like that's normal, that's what. [00:10:47] Speaker B: My parents live on a farm 40 miles south of Kansas City. And whenever I go there, you know, on a clear night you can see The Milky Way. Not well, but you can see it. And I'm always out there. She's having to drag me inside because I'm staring at the sky. I don't. I was like, mom, I have like 10 stars in my sky. This is. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was born and raised and continues to live in Chicago. What are stars? They're airplanes moving to O'Hare every eight minutes. [00:11:16] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. So. Wow. And. And like that. I took that. I took advantage of that, obviously, growing up. Then we moved to the Boston area and it was gone. I remember being in Troy, New York, in an astronomy class on the top of the building in the observatory, and everybody's like, o. And I was like, guys, guys. This is no. Like, I could see all this high pressure sodium around. This is insane. So I see the way to make an impact is by creating lighting ordinances and working with communities who want to do, like, we'll call them dark sky principles or follow, you know, the best way and the most appropriate ways to light their community. And we have this fun community in Colorado because it's very much a resort community, but then it's very rural and you can see the night sky. But we do fight and we have, you know, we have metropolitan areas and there's lots of light pollution. And so it's a really great place to come. Practice that because, like, that desire and environmental interest really exists. So just being able to work with local governments and partnering with them to see what the right answer is. And then when you get into it, it becomes the criteria. We know what it is, but it becomes a translation service. So really it evolves into communication. And how do we. We know how to communicate with our architects pretty well, I think, as lighting designers. But how do we really leverage the communication to the general public and cities and municipalities? And what does that look like? So we explore that and have been exploring different ways. And I think it's really enlightening because I can't help it. [00:13:11] Speaker A: No. Excellent use of pun Lighting. [00:13:12] Speaker B: Lighting. Puns are so easy. [00:13:14] Speaker C: Oh, God. But it. Because people actually do care about seeing the night sky. Like, that is one thing we all really align with. And, you know, everybody has the different viewpoints, but in the end, there's so many shared interests that we can bring people together with that. And that part is real cool. Not like, personally a project that I didn't work on, but I know in like, Fort Collins, for example, they. They had some issues getting their municipal code adopted because of the growth plan, but we were able to go into that Realm into that sort of hotspot and pass the lighting ordinance. So we're able to still get these changes through. Just because there's, like, enough shared interest between the communities, too, to want to adopt something and do better. [00:14:04] Speaker B: I was on a panel recently here in St. Louis talking about sustainability, and I kind of took the. I really talked most about dark skies. And anyway, at the conclusion that the panel really, to make the changes that need to be made, it is a matter of getting the general public on board. And so I think you're right that this is an area that people get and understand and want, you know, want dark skies. So one of the things I shared in that group, and I think it's worth saying out loud here, even though we know if you wouldn't mind, like the five principles for responsible outdoor lighting. [00:14:45] Speaker C: Is that what it is? [00:14:47] Speaker B: Five lighting principles for responsible outdoor Lighting. [00:14:50] Speaker C: I want to back up for a second because I wanted to say, through everything we've done, it feels like there's a. There's a few common things that happen. And what you will see in most every ordinance or most every community is they will think that you can't do dark sky lighting and achieve appropriate light levels. This is something that every. Every time. Yeah. So I, I really, I mean, maybe we can go there in a minute. But like, the five principles of lighting, like, that's a great segue because it tells us that, hey, we actually can do. Do all, you know, it's useful, targeted. [00:15:30] Speaker B: Low level, controlled, and then that's color. [00:15:33] Speaker C: Warm, the color, temperature. Yeah, yeah. So like useful light, you know, targeted light, the low level light, the appropriate amount of light, all of those things, those principles are set up to do dark sky, and you don't have to sacrifice light levels. So it's our job to. Or like, you know, at Clinton Associates, our job to convey that message very, very clearly in every community that we work with. Because that's the last thing we want is for communities to think you can't do both, because you can, and it's beautiful when you do. It's coming back to that shared interest. And like, how, like, what are the. These common misconceptions of we can't do dark sky? Another common misconception that we get is our resort community is the only kind out there. We have very specific problems and nobody else has them. And, you know, and I don't know if I, I don't think I've heard that on the design side, really. I think about how does this correlate to experience in the design world. I think maybe for a given site or something. Sites have very specific needs. But it is funny because you will hear that repeated for each community and I. We listen, of course, but their story is the same version that we see time and time again. You know, it's interesting just to pull that all together. [00:16:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So then are you able to use that experience and expertise and say, well, this is what we did for this community because they needed that, or did they not want to hear it because they want to be a unique unicorn? [00:17:11] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a delicate walk to do, to take because they are unique. No place is the same. But the principle of the matter is usually the same. How it's walked out and how they experience it. Like for example, you know, color temperature is a big problem. We can't agree on color temperature. That's a common one that we see. And the way that we remedy that is by doing a demonstration and we do a survey. And so there's these tools that we use to demonstrate that. But it's just coming back to the principle of the issue. And from there, educating and encouraging feedback and listening seems to help a lot. It's so much more of a partnership versus design projects that I find with ordinances, it's more emotional people, people don't like more regulation, that's another one. But they ask for it, but they don't want it. [00:18:14] Speaker B: What's the most surprising thing you've seen in a survey? The most surprising answer. Do you always get the results you expect from the survey? [00:18:23] Speaker C: Never. Never. It's been a long time since I've done like a walking survey. But I think the opinions that like just being allowed to express how you are feeling about a certain lighting, like we'll take them out and look at a facade and say, here, what do you think? You know, So I don't, I don't think it's like the surprise part to me isn't in that, it's not in the response. I think the exciting part is the flip of them realizing and being like, oh, you know, like that. The educational part of it, I think for me is seeing them like I. Now I get it. Like, this is not. And as lighting designers, we all know this, but I think we take that for granted. And I think going back to discussing a light level scenario, high versus low and what can your eyes perceive and kind of like putting that in language, like that's the fun part because it's like everybody sees, everybody pays attention to brightness. [00:19:20] Speaker B: This has got me thinking about the different Stakeholders that are involved in projects, all kinds of projects, but outdoor projects. You've got the police who. You just can't have too much light. They just want more and more and more light. And then you've got the, I don't know if it's on a street with retail businesses. They want light that's going to bring people to their stores. You've got the general public who maybe thinks they want more light. But I don't know, like, how do you. And maybe it's what you just said, you show it to them. But cities kind of have their standards already, and so are you able to help them understand that it can change? You know, I'm thinking about a project we have right now where the police want whatever it is, four or five foot candles. And how do you, how do you talk to them about. [00:20:14] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:15] Speaker B: If I think about their standard, I mean, like you're, I guess they're asking you to change their standard, but. [00:20:21] Speaker C: Well, I think about like what Rick Utting says, and this is dark sky too, is more light means you need more light, you know, and so we, we go from there to, to demonstrate that. And I, we've done demonstrations at a police station where we had the lights at a certain level, and then they go around to other sites and then they come back to the parking lot. Unbeknownst to them, we take it down to 50, 25% of that light level and we're like, okay, what do you think? And they take the survey and they're the exact same responses, you know, so it's like tactics like that that we have to use because there's just so much prejudice or like preconceived ideas baked into their experiences. Let me just think about your visual experience. You know, when you, your brain like has to categorize things, otherwise you'd be overwhelmed. Right. It's like you drive to work and you're like, get there. And you're like, how'd I get here? You know, And I think the same goes with the visual experience of nighttime. You know, like after a while your brain just comprehends something. And so then when you really like get a check a second to check yourself on that, those are the instances and the opportunities where we can show this is actually what needs to happen. The battle is getting that in a ordinance proposal, getting the fee for that. That is, it is imperative to have stakeholder input and to do these types of communications one on one if there's issues. And a lot of the times the ordinance budget doesn't Allow for that. So it is, it's, you know, that's got to do better there. But that seems to be the best way for us to get ordinances passed is by working with, directly with people in the community. [00:22:12] Speaker B: Part of it, I mean, just even as in that example you gave, you know, the human visual system isn't static, so it's changing and adapting to the amount of light that your eye is exposed to. So that's hard to say to people, but you show them that's really brilliant. [00:22:31] Speaker C: And it's. How do you respect the work they put into it? Right. So a city or municipality will bleed over something and finally get it through. And there's nothing about light trespass, but yet there's complaints about light trespass. And so a lot of the times we're handed these documents that they only want to revise, we'll say, but really they need a whole new way of whole new ordinance because they're based on wattage. So it's, it's the delicate conversation of, of trying to provide them what they want. We want to help, you know, but how do we, you know, how do you, how do you manage that line of. Okay, let me respect. You respect the work you've done, but you need to change it all. Yeah. [00:23:19] Speaker B: Those codes based on wattage, that cracks me up. I've seen pool codes based on wattage too. [00:23:26] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. I think that the interesting one is when we're working with the city of Aspen in Pitkin county is no linear lighting is allowed outside. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Oh, I've heard that one. Yeah. [00:23:39] Speaker C: Well, we fixed it. It's allowed now. Okay. Announcement to all of those who do high end residential or others. Yeah. [00:23:48] Speaker A: I've experienced two situations that I've yet to been able to resolve. And one I can bring closer to home, which is my next door neighbor has, you know, the spotlights and every time the dog comes out, right. My whole master bedroom's lit. And I've kind of put to my team a couple of times, like, what could we put up there that would not do that to my house but still light her backyard? Because I will climb up a ladder and replace it. But you know, it's just in that, like kind of little residential. Right. I've found this issue and then if I take it one step further, my village and the lovely city of Chicago as well has started to put in all these LED street lights. And I think we're talking about different elements, but I think it still applies to street lighting. And they're just buying the cheapest thing they can that has this idea of dark sky. And I, I think it is. I mean, if you look at zero or I guess, and we haven't really defined that in this conversation, but as I understand it, anything above 90% or zero, 90 degrees or zero. Right. You want no light going up into the sky, right? [00:25:05] Speaker C: Right. Yes. [00:25:06] Speaker A: But what about like 80% of the light output going at 85 degrees right into your windshield? And I noticed, I just happened to notice this when I was driving the city of Chicago recently. There's no blue ban at the top of my windshield anymore. So, you know, if you ever run into Avi Moore driving down the city of Chicago at night, I'm typically wearing sunglasses because it's so glaring. Those heads they put in, so they got led. They are dark sky, as far as I could tell. I mean, it was some Chicago based company that set up a manufacturing facility for a few weeks to make Rahm Emanuel happy. But it still doesn't have that quality. And I think that's the other part of what you've been working on is great dark sky, but what about quality? And as we were just talking about here, light level and intensity and color. Right. All of these things apply to creating the right environment at night. [00:26:11] Speaker C: Yes. So, for example, we write street lighting guidelines. This is what you should do for this area. And for a while we wrote them based on activity because the IAS RP8 said these are all based on activity. And we have since pivoted from that. And we go by adjacent land use because what was happening is we were getting called in to do forensics on projects because a new, you know, residential suburban neighborhood was put up. And the engineers that went in to design it go know, like in 10 years it's going to be medium pedestrian density. So we're going to put the lights in for that right now. But they were lighting up cornfields or, you know, really rural areas. And like, there was so much backlash to that that we were like, you know what we need to do adjacent land use. And like, that's something we should talk about more as an industry because we don't want to. [00:27:09] Speaker A: It's. [00:27:10] Speaker C: It's a litigious society we live in. We do not want to put ourselves up for that professional risk. It's really terrible when you have that happen and you have to go be deposed and talk about that and get sued and all that fun stuff. But, you know, how do we, you know, how do we do the right thing? And so instead of our engineers trying to figure out what the right thing is for them. You use. What we do is we do light levels per lighting zone, lighting requirements per lighting zone. This is something that we see obviously in Ashrae, IACC with the LPDs. Our lighting power densities are different per zone. We all understand this. Why can't we apply that to our ordinances? That's what the model lighting ordinance does. And what Dark sky is trying to do as well. It's just taking it just a tiny step further is going to, you know, it's going to protect the designer and then it's going to do better for the community. [00:28:10] Speaker A: I think you're hitting on two really important points. One, don't forget that ies are recommendations and they leave it to the expert. And the second most important point, the lighting designer was not necessarily an engineer, but a designer who's making intelligent choices based on light level. And all of those things combined. Right. Like there is no residential area that's the same. It's just like you were talking about with the different areas. Right. Everything's a little bit different. But it may not be. But it is. [00:28:50] Speaker C: But the principle is the same, right? [00:28:54] Speaker A: Right, yeah, principle's the same. But maybe you needed a. And you have a similar art intention, a similar feel wanted, but the technology to meet that art is going to be a little bit different. Because you're in Aspen versus being in the middle of Texas somewhere. I think you'd use a different looking fixture between. [00:29:18] Speaker C: I've done both. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Just my. Right, well, see, there you go. [00:29:24] Speaker C: Yes, yeah, totally, totally. I just think about where I was on the energy front before I came into the design of it. And I. And so I know exactly where, where they're coming from. I see those energy conservation calculations and they don't want to build another power plant. They need to the utility themselves, you know, they give themselves that funding so that they can save the energy and put the money into saving the energy so they don't have to make a new power plant. So that's a big part of it. And coming from that background, I just. If I could go back in time, I really wish that the optics conversation was brought into that realm of the energy saving. And I know ILD really did lobby and try and we're like, we're working on that. But you know, we started with the 5000 case, right? Everything, all the streetlights went to 5000ks and we're like understanding this is blue light. We can see better with blue light. And the LRC did some really great research on that. You Know, but. But we're just peeling it off. But as we're peeling it off to get the better savings, so we don't use as much energy, which is a good thing. We forgot about the human visual system and quality lighting. And now we're stuck with Abby wearing sunglasses as she drives at night. [00:30:42] Speaker A: And they say they're 3500k, but they're not. And what also was interesting, I wrote an op ed in AIA Chicago magazine because they hired a company to replace all the lights in Chicago. That was the end of the conversation. There wasn't any design. [00:31:05] Speaker B: No design. [00:31:06] Speaker A: There wasn't, you know, and I remember asking some of the other lighting designers in town, like, did you do any layouts? Did you help anybody? Like, before I put this op ed out there, I want to make sure. No, it was all about energy savings, 3500k and controls. Right. They wanted to be able to make sure the lights were on, even though I don't think they use it. But, you know, I can't speak to that specifically, but. [00:31:31] Speaker B: Because you can't tell. But yeah, I mean, it comes back. The most efficient source is a glary, you know, unshielded source. Right. And so we can't have efficiency at the sacrifice of everything else. [00:31:46] Speaker C: Right. Especially in the early 2000 and tens when all of this was happening, you know, And I think about going to, like, the NIA conferences and who was there to talk about, you know, the quality. And so I would love it. And I mean, I don't think that ship has sailed. But you know, how, like, how the ILD tries to partner with these associations to get into that or, you know, as lighting design firms, like if we do pro bono work or something, you know, or, you know, maybe I'm saying this is what I should start focusing on, is how to get into that because we can all partner together. You know, it's not far off. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:23] Speaker C: I'm sorry that they didn't have a designer in Chicago. And. Yeah. And then people get mad and then what happens is, is they end up having to replace them all and they have to go through the process because, you know, I mean, think, for example, when headlights change to led, everybody knows. Or like the. What's the other one that they started using? Like, you know. Right, right. And then all of a sudden everybody's flashing their brights at you and you're like, dude, like, chill out. Right. You know, we're very sensitive at night to that. [00:32:56] Speaker A: Or all those municipalities who have failed LEDs that are now just that beautiful UV blue on your skin. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Purple ones. [00:33:07] Speaker C: Yes. [00:33:07] Speaker A: Purple lights. Yeah. I mean, super cool. Love the color. I don't think that's what they intended, though. [00:33:15] Speaker C: No. Or. [00:33:17] Speaker B: And another one is emergency vehicles. You know, they wanted brighter lights, and now it's dangerous. They're so piercing. [00:33:27] Speaker A: Yeah. To the point where you can't see because they're so bright behind you at night. I mean, we have this amazing thing called, like, lighting controls and dimming, where they wouldn't even have to think about it. Right. It would just understand the general illuminance of the area, and they would still turn on the lights in the fire truck, but it would just adjust accordingly based on the general illuminance of the space. I mean, not that hard, but it costs something. [00:33:59] Speaker C: Oh, you know, us lighting designers are such interesting creatures. You know, it's wonderful. We just had ild and I was. I was sitting around during Crosstalk and I was listening to these other lighting designers, you know, say how they, you know, need to take a screenshot from this website so they could put on their precedent image here, but they actually need that. They. Then they do this to the spec sheet and they. And I was like, really? I really felt validated. You know, it's just. I feel like our community has such a beautiful knowledge and such a passion to actually take the time to take, you know what I mean, to stitch all these things together just to represent it. Right. You know, I mean, I think there is something beautiful that is within our lighting design community that we really can leverage it further. I think, you know, and I know there are organizations, you know, obviously, ild ies, I think, business of light, you know, leveraging that. So how, you know, what can we do more? And like, that's because I really think. And now it may be different because there's more tailored educations for lighting design, but a lot of people find themselves making that very conscious decision. And the result is this industry that people actually want to be here and they like it and they care, and it's so cool. And so, yeah, I think for me, leveraging that together in certain ways could be so powerful for municipalities to better affect the dark skies and really get the message out there, you can do dark sky is the appropriate amount of light. You can do dark sky and have the right lighting. Like, that's. That's hand in hand. And so that is something that I just. I see this in our industry, and it, like, makes me excited. [00:35:53] Speaker B: That would be amazing. We need to get there. We need avi to see stars. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess I would say that it comes with more and more advocacy for the profession is my belief. It's kind of my path that I'm trying to head down because I just think that there are not enough lighting designers in the world. But beyond that, we're not known as well as I'd like. And Lisa and I recently posted a podcast, or we will be posting an episode where we challenge everyone, everybody. That if you see something on Facebook, LinkedIn, a website, an email from a manufacturer, which I actually just got one the other day, and then immediately question who was a lighting designer and how did that happen? [00:36:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Because so often, you know, you have these gorgeous pictures of these installations that an architect will share or like Avi said, a manufacturer with no acknowledgement of who did the lighting design. [00:36:59] Speaker A: You know, and then I would go back to that, you know, the city of Chicago, they probably just didn't know that for some small amount of money. Right. I mean, I would be the first one here to say the entire city of Chicago lighting, just include my name. Happy to help out. Right. Like, oh, my gosh. Because it's my city. I mean, it's not mine. I don't live there anymore. But, you know, we want to make the places we live better. I want to see the stars. Right. And we, as lighting designers, I always like to make sure we speak to this point when we're talking about passion is the only reason we pay our mortgages. The only way we pay our mortgages is by the passion for our art form and nothing else. We are not connected to the products at all whatsoever. There may be some, but I think I could speak for these three, that this passion is singular, focused on this art form that we are obsessed with. [00:38:14] Speaker C: Yes. [00:38:15] Speaker A: We just have to share it more. I think there isn't. My latest theory, and I feel like we're veering off, but my latest theory is that there isn't another thing in the building, in the built environment, or people that are so passionate about a singular element. Right. When you think about budgets for buildings, budget for part outdoor environments, whatever it is, lighting's one line item, right? [00:38:45] Speaker B: Concrete finishes, sometimes it's just absorbed in electrical. It's not even in line item. [00:38:50] Speaker A: It might even be just in that one line item inside of electrical. Right. But there is, and I welcome anybody listening to say that I'm wrong. But I've yet to find a profession in the built environment that is singularly passionate about a single line item like lighting designers are. And I feel like that has turned the eye to some people and they don't understand. They don't understand this passion. [00:39:21] Speaker B: It's cultish. [00:39:23] Speaker C: It is. No, I'm. I see where you're going with this, and it is like being fresh off of ild. It's fascinating to me how I think about, like, the practice of architecture and getting the drawings out and the, you know, like, there is. There's a way that you do architecture, right? And like, but for lighting design, the profession itself, there's not a book, there's not a how to. There's some programs out there that get into it a little bit and that you can explore that. But not everybody in the profession has that background, education. Right. So we don't all have the same credentials yet we land at this lighting cross talk and say the same things that we want in our products, what we demand from our architects. It's very fascinating how, though we're everywhere, we're so aligned in like, you know, the principles of lighting. Like, we all get that and we all strive for that. I think it's so cool. And it is like that passion is in there. It's just. It's fascinating. [00:40:30] Speaker B: So how do we harness that? You know, Avi says advocacy for the profession, that's one thing, but just to make the world understand, to make the general public understand that lighting can make their lives better. [00:40:42] Speaker C: We really are so connected to lighting. There's so many shared interests. After doing so many interviews and ordinance works, which is allowing me to talk to people about how they experience light, everybody pays attention. So I would say this is an opportunity that is sitting right there in front of us that we can crack and that we can look at something a different way. Like, I would love it if Netflix could do a special on lighting. [00:41:13] Speaker A: I love it. [00:41:14] Speaker C: Any Netflix executives out there, like, let's do this. Like, let's demonstrate the power and how we are. And like, you know, everybody's talking about your. Your circadian rhythm. Like, oh, I can't go to bed. I have to take melatonin. Like, all of these little breadcrumbs are out there. Just like, everybody does have a stake and everybody is interested. And the fun part is bringing people together, making realize that. And then you get the unanimous yes on your ordinance vote passed, you know, so, like, that's like, for me, like, that's where that. I feel like the most. Most achievement in those moments. But it's there, it's ripe. We got to pick it. [00:41:55] Speaker A: And I think hopefully you could extend that into. Yeah, we want Flickr out of our kindergarten classrooms. And yeah, we want Flickr out of our. You name it. And we want. There's just so many extensions. I think that what's amazing is what you've started is that ordinance level on the exterior side of it. Right. And so how do we extend that even further? Again, like you said, nobody wants more regulations, but in the end it is better and it just gets people to think a little bit more before they throw a big bomb on the side of the building or whatever. [00:42:37] Speaker C: Right, exactly. [00:42:39] Speaker A: And then extend that into a quality of the built environment. Right. And bring that back and extend it and keep going. [00:42:47] Speaker C: Yeah. We didn't even talk about healthy buildings, human centric lighting or, you know, it's all there. There's so much to explore. That's why that one line item is so interesting. It's biological, honestly. [00:43:03] Speaker A: Well, my other thing is, the other thing I've kind of come to is there isn't much else you can count in a building when you think about it. Toilets, sinks, faucets. But those, those are kind of all based on ordinances and code. You have to have this many toilets and this many sinks and yada, yada, yada. Right, right. [00:43:25] Speaker B: Parking spaces. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Parking spaces. Also codified windows. Well, if it's a glass building, it's glass. Right. But are we counting vents? Are we counting linear feet of duct? Are we counting how many sheets of drywall at bid? We're just looking at a drywall guys or drywall person's price. Right. But man, you can count how many, hopefully not 6 inch, 4 inch down lights there are in the job and compare that to the current price at Home Depot of 2295 or whatever it is. [00:44:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:02] Speaker A: Or you know that pole top fixture that I can buy at Granger versus, you know, the dark sky one that I may need one more pole in 100 yards, 200 yard, 300 yard street. But man, it's going to be so much better. [00:44:20] Speaker C: I mean, that's, that's interesting about the poles because recently I was working on a project where they're like, well, the poles are the most expensive. So we're going to take out 10 and there were like 20. And I thought, wow, isn't that interesting that you think that I did a design with 50, you know, 150% polls that we actually need? Like, no, no, no, we don't want to put it in that many poles. They're a pain in the butt. They are really hard to coordinate. They're very expensive. And so that's Just another demonstration of how we're. How our practice is misviewed. [00:44:56] Speaker A: Exactly. Well, yeah, yeah. Because you're getting paid a percentage of the shipping and freight and the number of poles, right? I wish sometimes. [00:45:06] Speaker C: Yeah. But no, for the record, no. [00:45:09] Speaker A: Right. We did a calculation. This is what it is. We figured out the least amount, the least. [00:45:14] Speaker C: Mm, yeah. Yeah. So that's. That's also another issue. [00:45:18] Speaker A: Oh, there's so many places that this could go. [00:45:22] Speaker B: I feel like this is a downer. And I don't think we should end on this sort of sad, frustrated lighting designer note. So what's awesome about what you're doing. [00:45:31] Speaker C: Brittany, it's going to have real impact in a positive way to create ordinances that have light trespass values, have lumen limit values. It's going to help so we can see the night sky. And I will tell you that, you know, we use the satellite imagery and so you can see on there, I'm sure you guys are familiar with it, and it shows the curve of certain neighborhoods. And pretty much all light pollution is going upwards. So anything that going in there, I know it's going to trend it back down. And so that is the payoff, that's the excitement, that's the impact that I'm here for. [00:46:09] Speaker A: Well, I think we should all try to keep that. I know in our practice, we try as much as possible to put light down. Right. As opposed to up lighting buildings or anything. You know, every once in a while there's something that you end up doing. [00:46:27] Speaker C: Just put on a timer. [00:46:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And watch out for, you know, one of our client, one of our architect clients is a birdwatcher and talks a lot about, you know, the bird migration and all those things. And so how can everyone apply this a little bit more? Because we want to see the stars. You know, that's where the dreams come from. There's so much more there and it. And it gets lost without great thinking and the great work you're doing. [00:46:56] Speaker C: I think what I would ask lighting designers to do is when you find yourself designing an outdoor space that you think very carefully about the adjacent land use. So, who's your neighbor? Where's your property line? If you're doing a lead calculation, you already know that. But I would ask us to think more about what lighting zone is this versus what it should be be. Design it for what it should be, because that's enough. [00:47:20] Speaker A: I love that. [00:47:22] Speaker B: That's really good. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Brittany, for being here and for the comments and everything. And this has really been Great. And this takes a little bit to get our word out there about how important lighting is and that lighting matters. And today's episode. We appreciate our sponsor bartco Lighting. Bartco is a family owned and operated Made in the USA enterprise. They are a proud innovator and partner of the lighting design community. Since their start in 1982 they've adopted the industry's changes and continue to thrive. Right. We talked about this before. They were big on CFL and as Brittany said and I actually remember they had that aluminum tube that had the little LEDs that you could slide into the closet light. What was it? [00:48:11] Speaker C: Is it the closet light? [00:48:12] Speaker A: It was a T5 shape aluminum piece that had LEDs that you could snap into the tombstones. It was their first. You know, it was the LED Wild Wild West. I was just reminiscing about that. Barco Lighting offers a wide range of linear LED luminaires from versatile and minimal profiles of the Bode series to the rich wooden materials of the False Reel series. They manufacture something for any project and. [00:48:44] Speaker B: They know that amazing employees play a vital role in a successful customer experience. I love that and they are proud to be an IBEW union company. They do their best to source materials locally, which is also awesome, to support local communities and to help reduce their carbon footprint. They pride themselves on being an eco friendly practice through recycling, solvent free manufacturing and being leaders in greener coating processes. All their fixtures are manufactured in and shipped from their factory in Huntington Beach, California and are Buy America act compliant. Their mission is to inspire creativity and unique ideas when it comes to implementing lighting solutions. So how can bartco Lighting bring your visions to light? Learn more@bartco lighting.com thanks for being here Brittany. It's always so fun to talk to you. [00:49:42] Speaker C: Appreciate it. It's been fun. [00:49:46] Speaker B: Lighting Matters as we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues. [00:50:02] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional IALD lighting designer such as RBLD or morelights for your next endeavor.