Episode 25: Luci on Creating Memories with Light

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting Matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design. [00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters. Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. I'm one of your co hosts, Lisa Reed, with Reed Burkitt lighting design in St. Louis. But today, coming to you from Green Bay, Wisconsin. And I'm here with Avi. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Avi Moore with Moore Lights in Chicago. And I am so excited to bring today a really awesome pair from Lucy Creative, Kevin Snow, and aj. Aj, I second guess pronouncing your last name every time I say it. And now we're live, and. And I'm afraid I'm going to do it wrong. [00:00:58] Speaker C: And we've known each other for, like, 15 years. Say my last name still. [00:01:03] Speaker A: No, it's one of these, like, brain, like, you know, like, I get. I get, like, in this, like, oh, my God, I'm going to screw. You know, I don't want to say. [00:01:14] Speaker B: It out loud publicly. [00:01:16] Speaker D: No. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Like, I've never introduced you publicly. And I just cowering like a mouse in the corner. [00:01:24] Speaker C: All right, we're gonna learn it gaily. Like. Like Goethe. Like the street in Chicago that's spelled Gothi, but it's really Goethe. It's gaily gayly. [00:01:35] Speaker B: See? [00:01:35] Speaker A: I see. And this is just like, it looks cowering in a corner. [00:01:42] Speaker D: When we. My son's ha. And when we started, we were like, which ha are you talking about? [00:01:51] Speaker A: But that said, AJ and Kevin, thank you so much for joining us. I think your thoughts on what we talk about at Lighting Matters is so important because it's a little bit different than what we talked about solely in the architecture space. But I think before we get into that, it'd be great for the audience to better understand who you are and a little bit about Lucy Creative. [00:02:18] Speaker C: Sure. Kev. Do you want to go or you want me to go? [00:02:21] Speaker D: Yeah, no, you go, aj. [00:02:23] Speaker C: Okay. Well, do you want me to introduce myself, Abby, and tell you about Lucy? [00:02:27] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:02:28] Speaker C: Okay. So Kevin and I started Lucy Creative in 2011, which feels like a century ago, which almost is. Actually feels like forever. Kevin and I were good friends. He was actually a colleague when he was working at Museum. When I was working at Museum of Science and Industry. And I met him when he was working for Ravenswood Studio. And I came to Kevin and I was like, I want to work with you. How are we going to do this? And so together, Kevin and I, with Michael Shapiro, who owns Ravenswood, spun out and started Lucy Creative separately as its own design firm that would utilize the resources of a fabrication expert very early in the creative process to inform the designs to be smarter design partners for our clients. And I always like to say to not be dream crushers. When you actually get to the table to present an idea and you're like, how are we going to defy gravity? Oh, don't worry, client. We figured it out. And so when we went, we started that with two of us. And we've evolved now to 52 of us across the country. We have three offices. Our headquarters is here in Chicago. We have an office in Seattle on the west coast, and we also have an office in Brooklyn, New York, on the east Coast. And then in a post Covid world, we have lots of other geographically distributed team members that are working from their home offices across the country because we truly believe in bringing on the best talent for the projects and the teams versus trying to fill based on where you're located and where you live. So it's been a really fun journey. And I probably should say what we do and what we focus on is creating immersive visitor experiences that really leave an imprint or a memory with you long after you leave. So we love to tell stories using whole body learning, immersive storytelling techniques that really allow you to only get those experiences in person that you can never get on a device like this. And we work in all sorts of different types of institutions, from history museums to science museums, to cultural niches like Holocaust museums, children's museums, and even down to things like people's personal collections like the Perfume Museum that actually is now a destination attraction. So we're very blessed and jazzed by all the great people we've surrounded ourselves with that can help Kevin and I dream big and do more than we could ever imagined in 2011 when we were like, let's do this thing. Sorry, Kevin, did you want to add anything to that? I know, I just talked for a long time. [00:05:00] Speaker D: We said at the beginning we wouldn't get any larger than 30 people. [00:05:07] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:08] Speaker D: Yeah. It's been a really amazing ride. The growth has been wonderful. And, you know, we come from varied backgrounds. My background is theater and opera, is the lighting and set designer. You know, AJ's background in brand and graphic design and anything else. [00:05:30] Speaker C: I can design exhibits three dimensionally. Yeah, I know how to use Sketchup. [00:05:36] Speaker D: That's right. You came to us from msi. Yeah. But anyhow, you know, it's this kind of really nice variety of richness, I think, in how we approach visitor experience. You know, I always equate it. You know, one of our biggest goals is to have that transportative moment, you know, for our visitors, so that when they're in the exhibit, the rest of the world goes away. And that's not uncommon for theater and opera, et cetera. And, you know, so really kind of creating that type of experience in the museum, I think is our primary motivation in all the work that we do. [00:06:16] Speaker A: One of my. [00:06:17] Speaker C: I'm sorry, look like you're catching us today, which is just kind of kismeth. This today is happening on Lucy Brand relaunch day. [00:06:26] Speaker A: I noticed that today begins the next. [00:06:30] Speaker C: Chapter for Lucy, where we're really throwing all the cards in and really honing in on creating these imprint experiences and makers of museum memories. And so thank you for having us on. Now we can practice talking about it. [00:06:44] Speaker A: Well, and I think with that, Kevin, you kind of made me think of one of the favorite phrases that I have is a suspension of disbelief. [00:06:55] Speaker D: Yes. [00:06:55] Speaker A: Presented to me in light in theater 101 in college. And it was just this mind blowing phrase that when you enter a space and many of the spaces that we've done together and that you guys have done with other lighting designers, but it very much is these spaces where you lose yourself, right? You and you. You in scenarios. You. You are learning, but you don't realize you're learning. But you. You check everything that happened previous to walking in at the door, and you have lost yourself in this space. [00:07:37] Speaker D: Yeah, there's a nut. Exactly. And there's another way I describe it too, to, you know, like, clients, etc. I say there were moments in theater even when it wasn't my show, but I could have been sitting at the tech table, right? Where we also have a metaphor called the fourth wall. Everybody kind of knows what that is in theater. It's glass. It's clear, you can see through it. But it's a fourth wall. And everybody has to break the fourth wall. But what really happens is that that actually really happens when you're sitting in your seat and you kind of all of a sudden you lean forward and you go, oh, my God. You know, you have this moment where you're like. You make this amazing direct connection to what's happening up there. And you have those moments in museums as well, you know, And I think it's our job to. It doesn't have to be one big complete fourth wall of apparition, you know, but to have this sort of rhythm and pattern to it that creates those moments as you go throughout the entire experience. And, you know, I mean. And so this is kind of what we're here to talk about, too, is how lighting does that. Right, Right. [00:08:55] Speaker A: I mean, absolutely. I think it's just a per. Thank you for the perfect transition because that storyline has to happen in some way. And, you know, I don't know. I pose it to both of you, but I think that there is time and metering that happens in an exhibit design. But it seems to me a light makes that happen. Like, there are elements of the signage and the design and all the other. The carpet, the finishes, everything that kind of helps with that meter and timing. But it seems like the light is the thing that finally makes it and brings it all together. [00:09:46] Speaker B: It should seem like that to you, Avi. That's your discipline. [00:09:51] Speaker D: Yeah. As a lighting designer, I, you know. No, you're very right. Here's what's interesting for me. The difference between, like, what I used to do 20 years ago, all the theater and opera and stuff, we played with. With an ever constant changing intensity, direction, movement in the light, you know, lighting cues and color and everything was just this, like, you know, you're directing it. Right. And in museums, it's a. It's a little bit different. Yes, it can have. It does have all of those, but it's not, you know, typically, here's. Here's what I find really interesting, or what stood out the most for me in museum lighting design was the idea of when I would design lighting for museum exhibits, I would consider as much the absence of light as where I was going to actually put it. I felt that in. Because I was working with less. I didn't want, you know, you don't want lights going up and down as people are going through. It's not a theater show. It's not a museum. So then you start to think about the absence of light where people. You don't want them to look. And we, you know, in this conversation that we're having at Lucy, we have the saying, it's. We shape the space between what is known and what can be imagined. It's one of our, like, you know, website things. The reality is that this sort of. And I'd love to explore this with you, all that transcends because what. I think it's really great what you light and where you light it and how. Where you tell people to look and how you evoke all these moods and stuff. But those areas of absence is where imagination Fills in. Right. So to me, I've always considered in museum lighting, these areas of absence of light is very, very important. And like, a good example is, remember when you were a kid and you opened up the door to the basement, what did you do? You filled that black void with your imagination. Right. And so we do that. I think we should be doing it in museum exhibits as well, because what it does is it expands our horizons. It breaks down that fourth wall. It really should break down all of the walls so that you feel like you're in a moment, you're in a place, et cetera. Absence of light doesn't mean total darkness either, of course. Right. But it's just something that I sort of picked up on at some point where I was like, wow, I'm really actually kind of working with this idea, and I've seen it be really, really successful in a number of instances, I think. [00:12:56] Speaker C: Kevin, adding to that, one of the interesting things about lighting that I've seen you do really well is using it as a way to make the visitor a protagonist in the story versus a spectator. And so the way that you've used light in our projects, you've brought it as a tool to invite visitors into that space and that physical environment you've designed versus standing in the darkness and looking in. And lighting has been a good tool for that because it's been then, a way for visitors to guide and explore the exhibitions by being part of the light and making it feel like they're being pulled into it versus watching it from afar. And I think we've seen exhibits that don't do that well, where the lighting is just on the gallery in terms of the artifacts or the graphics on the wall or the scenery, and you're, like, watching it from behind, and you're standing back and you're just like, that's not a welcoming space for me. But as you've done that, it really pulls you in and you're standing within it and you feel like you're one. I think that's been done really well. And Avi. Sorry, Kevin's done that in our projects, but you've done that really well in our projects too. [00:13:59] Speaker A: No, I think it goes back to the statement, are you building or this idea? Are you building a space that you're just looking at? Or are you entering a space that you're becoming one with? And there are sometimes places for both. But it's unfortunate if you're trying to make an immersive environment and you're just lighting all the walls. Right. Like, that doesn't. That doesn't answer the. That doesn't get somebody in the space. [00:14:34] Speaker B: Right. I mean, human connection, everybody at once is really all about story. And you've said it over and over again. AJ Is talked about story, Kevin, imagination. And if we want people to experience a space, whether it's an interactive space or just. Just a regular office or house or whatever, there has to be a story that. That people are invited into. [00:15:08] Speaker D: Yeah. You know, and, you know, I've. I've always sort of equated, like, basic lighting that we're talking about. Oh, I'm going to put fluid lights on the wall and then a bunch of spotlights on the panels and stuff is didactic lighting is what you would call it. You know, it's kind of table stakes. And it's interesting because that's kind of where we all started out, too. You probably, as a beginning lighting designer, said, you know, this is kind of the urge that I need to do, but that what happens next is that understanding of how I'm gonna tell the story and how I'm gonna layer the lighting on, and understanding in a way that as I progress through this visitor experience, the totality of it comes up. We've all seen before and after, because we've done that work. Right. We've walked into a place. I'll say First Division Museum was a project that stuck out to us in particular. There were two galleries, but the first gallery was this amazing space built by design craftsmen who have now gone out of business, and nobody does that kind of work anymore. It's this fully immersive. You're in the trenches, and there's a tank overhead, and I mean, it's just really, really amazing. And when we first walked in, it had, like, kind of high base sort of lighting, you know, so you could see every. Every sort of lighting. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. Yeah, I remember seeing that. It was just like, high base. It worked, but. [00:16:52] Speaker D: And so you have this amazing environment you're in the middle of, and then. And then it's like I could see every crack and every. Oh, that's a mannequin, not a person. And you see the seams and the murals and all that kind of stuff. So, you know. You know, but. But that was what was available to. Or. I don't know. You know, that's just sort of the approach they took. They didn't hire a lighting designer because the lighting designer wouldn't have done that. They would have immediately said, oh, my God, this is my once in my life experience. You know, chance to do this kind of lighting, you know, so, yeah, I think it's. It's one thing that, you know, we. We have clients where they're like, don't worry about it. I got it. We have our lighting. We. The track that's all in place and stuff like that, that you have to go through that extra effort to say yes, but, you know, it'll be okay. It'll be table stakes kind of stuff. Right. But. But you, you, you. You've got this opportunity here that we think is so, so important that we. We need to work very carefully. We're going to invest all this time in the storytelling. Then we're going to take them through those bumps and ridges. Right. You know, the story. You know how. How stories go in museums. You get these high points and then these quiet points. High points. And you're not. You're gonna mute that if you don't light this correctly. And so, and so I think it's, you know, having that conversation that really sort of, from our standpoint, say lighting is one of the most important aspects of the museum exhibit. And here's all those reasons why. [00:18:41] Speaker C: Can I share that picture of that project so you can just see it? Is that helpful? [00:18:45] Speaker D: You know, I wish I had a before picture of this thing. But you know what's really great, what's really interesting to me about this idea in negative space, and this is absolutely a theatrical, operatic sort of thing, Right. But that little, just sense of what's up there on the background, that painted mural and the fact that really it kind of fades off and you don't see anything. It allows you to fill that in. Oh, there's dark clouds. What's beyond that? This is on the edge of the. Of the English Channel. You know, I mean, you could just kind of go on and on and start to fill in those gaps. And so, you know, this is why I think that, you know, the idea in museum exhibits of this idea of negative space is so important. Important. It's not just a thing to direct your attention. Yeah. James Bond with Avi, you know, this I thought was really good in how we took a space that was really raw and really transformed it into something that really had a sense of depth and just the use of gobos and just the quality of the light, etc. [00:20:07] Speaker C: Really creating, like, textures and, you know, if you look at that wall, Brick wall there. But the great. The lighting. [00:20:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, I think it's also important to. To note because we've been talking a little bit about this on the podcast, too, is that the. The ideas we're talking about aren't expensive. Right. This isn't spending hundreds of dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars or blowing budgets or. You know, Kevin, to your example earlier of the museum that has track and lighting. [00:20:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:42] Speaker A: It's not that you have to replace that track or get new lights. It's literally about taking that infrastructure and just giving it a moment to allow the light to assist with the story. We just did an exhibit in Montana with another group and they said, this is the track, these are the heads, these are the lamps. Great. You need to spend about 100 bucks in gel. You have that in the budget? [00:21:19] Speaker D: Yes. [00:21:19] Speaker A: And can you go to Home Depot and buy some metal screen material? [00:21:22] Speaker D: Yes. [00:21:23] Speaker A: Okay, great. And, you know, they. They emailed us and we do have some before photos. It's so great. They email us. Like, the, the dinosaur doesn't look right. The graphics look like, this is. What have we spent all this money on? It's like we haven't been there yet. [00:21:39] Speaker D: Just. [00:21:40] Speaker A: Just give us. Just let us get on the plane. Like, there's one more thing that's getting installed. And. And Casey got out there, got everything focused, and everybody walked away. Like, best money we ever spent. Don't understand why. And we didn't. We. I mean, this is like Home Depot track systems. This is. It isn't Home Depot, but it's, you know, as inexpensive systems as possible. Just making sure that we aligned with the exhibit story. And I. And Kevin, I love it. Like light and shadow, like emphasizing where shadow is so you can let the mind fill it in. I love that 100%. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Evenly lighting everything is, you know, engineering perfection, but it doesn't tell the story, it doesn't contribute to the design. [00:22:41] Speaker C: And. [00:22:43] Speaker B: Yeah, just focusing that light, focusing attention. One of my favorite stories of one of the early lighting design, architectural lighting designers in our industry was when she was working on a hotel and they said, there's not enough light in here. You've got to add more light. And she just nodded and said, okay. And then she went out and did the final aim and focus. And they said, oh, thank you. Thank you for listening and adding more light. She just, she just smiled, you know, you're welcome. She didn't add a thing. She just put it where it belonged. [00:23:17] Speaker D: Yeah, well, one interesting thing is also the, you know, playing with absence of light. Absence costs nothing. Yeah, that's free and you get a lot from it, you know, so those areas where I didn't put any lighting fixtures Up I still got a lot from it because where I. Where we did put light, right. The combination of those two together, where it wasn't and where it was, was just amazing, you know. But you know what? You know, I mean, if we talk about budgets for a minute, two things come to mind. I mean, when we first started in lighting design, for example, if I was doing a really tiny show somewhere, I. I had, you know, 10 Fresnels, right. You know, to light a whole stage. 10 lights, right? And so you got really, really creative. And what was amazing was, is there are some of the most beautiful looks I've ever created were with 10 lights instead of 180. You know, so sometimes that very limited palette also brings across, you know, it's like that light lab exercise of you have the bust of Aristotle, right? And then you have to light it this way and this way and this way and that way. And you're like, oh, my God, your head explodes. Because you're like, light is like, does all of this stuff. So I also think, you know, just like you were saying, abhi, you know, hey, okay, it's a tight, you know, we have so many lights here. But, you know, and it's. Then you kind of can get really creative as well. So I sort of like, you know, being in that position sometimes. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Now I wonder because both of you are starting new projects, sometimes brand new museums and, you know, they're, they're 100% like, we need to hire a firm like Lucy to put this together. Like, I'm sure there's some scenarios where you have to convince them that they need you in the first place. But when you get past that point and then you start having the conversation of you need to have a lighting designer, or this is why you have Kevin involved in your studio sometimes or us or other parties, how does that go? How do you explain the need for that third party expert or Kevin's other side of his, you know, how do you explain that? [00:25:58] Speaker C: Well, I think, Kevin, I'll let you jump in here too. But you know, I think one of the big pieces, when you're creating a new museum from the ground up, the benefit of that is there's always an architect involved. Right. So when you have a new museum, the architect understands that, hey, we're responsible as an architect for the facility lighting, but we know that we're going to need to put a budget in place to support the exhibition lighting, which is different if we're trying to achieve a theatrical, immersive experience. And so there's always that balance, especially in the beginning, where you're starting to negotiate the budget allocations. Right. Of how much of how much is the architect going to let us use and put towards that. And also, what does the client understand in terms of the need and the requirements in order to achieve their goals? When you go through that whole precedent understanding of do you want this or do you want this? And showing those clients who might be less experienced those images to say, look at the difference if you want this. And this is what the budget we need to put towards it. And here's the experts need to bring to the table who might be different than your architect and their lighting designer. [00:27:01] Speaker A: So do you think. Sorry, Kevin, but do you think that that has been the most like, one of the things that we talk about constantly is how to keep selling lighting design. And do you think that. I mean, ultimately we. This. This group lives in such a visual environment that having that this is just lit and this is what expertise took that to. [00:27:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:25] Speaker D: Have you. [00:27:26] Speaker A: That that's been the most successful that you've seen? [00:27:28] Speaker C: I mean, we. So we have a document. So we've gotten a lot better at educating our clients. We have all sorts of clients. We have clients who have never even been in the museum world before. And this is their first time ever doing it. Probably the last time they'll ever do it again. Because they had this idea and this passion. They wanted to tell this story. And they're like, I need to find some experts to help me do this. We also have clients who have been working in museums for 30 years who are like, I know what I'm doing. I can do most of this in house, but I'm going to need to bring an outside team in because we don't have the capacity. Many of the clients who actually don't understand the evolution of what budgets mean associated with the level of fidelity and delivery of an experience. So we have this document we created to onboard and level set with every client when we start a project that takes you through the cost per square foot allocation with precedent images of finished projects that say, if you want something like this at $300 a square foot, it's inclusive of XYZ. If you want something like this at $1,000 a square foot, it's inclusive OF XYZ. And obviously you can imagine the thousand dollars a square foot or the 1500 dollars a square foot includes immersive theatrical lighting. And the $300 a square foot says, we got to use what you have in house. And we're Going to just do some lighting, focus with what's available. Right. With your example of the 10 lights and maybe some gel and refocus. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Now, I just. When you were talking earlier about how you talk to clients, Kevin, I felt like you were maybe using a little bit of FOMO, too. Like, you know, if you don't do this, you're gonna. You're gonna miss this opportunity. [00:29:04] Speaker C: Yeah. But you also have the reality of, like, the budgets that are in place and the clients. And we're trying to help them maximize the possibility with what they have. Right. That's all they have. They're not gonna get more. [00:29:15] Speaker D: Right. Look, dollar for dollar, there is nothing in the entire thing that we'd be providing. I'll be quite honest, in my opinion, that lighting offers the most dollar for dollar. Right. Building physical units. It requires, you know, materials and a lot of effort and, you know, prototyping, et cetera. I mean, but. But lighting, to me, feels like its benefit ratio to, you know, its cost is really good, you know, in the hands of the right designer. I'll also say that it's one of the hardest things to sell because it's an intangible. We've. We've known this forever. Right. But what you have to do, I think then is educate. Because, you know, it's like wine. Say, for example, you start drinking wine and you're like, it all sort of tastes the same, and all of a sudden you're able to go, oh, I can taste pencil shavings, you know. Right. So it's an education. You learn over time, and you see what's good and you see what's. And you start to make that connection. So, you know, a lot of times what we do is we. When we start a project, we spend time traveling with the client to some predetermined museum locations or whatever, so that we can have conversations about everything, you know, visitor experience, sound design. And then lighting is part of that. And sometimes you could just simply say, see, here's a very simple approach, but here's something that's much more sophisticated. Now, look at it in the terms of your entire experience as you walk through. So we'll prepare them before we walk through a museum to be able to have some of those conversations about lighting as well. So, you know, but AJ's right. It's sometimes the first time they're ever doing this. And so I think it's, you know, it's not delegatory, nor is it, you know, I think they enjoy it once they understand it, and they Start to see the subtleties in lighting design of what a good lighting design is like and what it adds to the visitor experience that just, you know, deepens their level of understanding. [00:31:44] Speaker C: We talk a lot about, you know, what do you want the client to know, what do you want them to do, and what do you want them to feel? And a lot of the times when we go through these precedent benchmark trips and stand inside the space, we'll identify different types of feelings that the client has told us they want their visitors to feel. And we'll go to spaces that evoke the same qualities. So a good example is like a contemplative space. A contemplative space has to have really great lighting because you have to control the noise and the cadence and the environment that they're standing in. And it can't be loud and it can't be bold and big. Right. It needs to be very cerebral and quiet. And so we like to take clients even to art museums or other types of exhibits that are different from what we're doing, that evoke those same feelings. Sometimes not even a museum environment, but it could be a hotel installation or a restaurant or an office building. Just to say, this is what contemplative means in practice, and this is the tools and the technology they've used with lighting in order to evoke that kind of feeling and quality. And you can't get that from a picture. You have to stand inside of it. You gotta be there. [00:32:51] Speaker D: Well, I'll add one thing. The most amazing wine I ever had did have a hint of pencil shapings. I was like, oh, my God, I can sense it. But why does that relate to lighting? I think that at that upper. Upper level, there are subtleties involved in the design that really, all of a sudden, I mean, just go. Right. Jump it up to another level. And it's that in hiring lighting centers that have been doing it for decades, et cetera, they've stood on the ladder, they've done the focus, they've made those explorations and those discoveries. Right. And then brought all of those discoveries from all of the other museum projects before forward to your project. You know, that's important. [00:33:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:44] Speaker B: Do you. Do you always go with clients to. Or potential clients to spaces? Or is this after. After you've. [00:33:53] Speaker C: It's after we've been awarded it. So usually as part of, like, a discovery period, we'll create a design brief with the client. And after that design brief's established, we'll start to identify the look and feel, the visitor experience, the Feelings we want them to evoke. And we'll go then identify maybe like a trip to D.C. and we'll go to six museums over two days and talk about and together stand in those spaces and talk about successful or not. Sometimes the best projects to look at are what's not successful. So you know that the client doesn't want. That. [00:34:27] Speaker B: Sounds really powerful. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Sorry. Or the ones that like had that story but now it has been maintained. Right. Like I, I think there's some of the story too that like longevity. Right. Like some of these are around for a very long time. And so the longevity. Right. There's so many pieces to this success that have to be discussed and balanced and measured and ultimately land at that end result aligned with a budget that was set seven years ago before tariffs and everything else that exists. [00:35:08] Speaker C: I mean that's a huge thing. Today for sure is like the budgets that were set 10 years ago for that project and now we're starting it after they finally got a green light, needs to change or how do we anticipate what's going to be needed five years from now when we even start with a budget today and not knowing what the world is going to be like in five years or what's going to happen and plan for escalation. I mean we're working on a project now. Avi with you guys, we all didn't expect this, but the hardware just got extremely more expensive because we're shipping it in from overseas. The client didn't plan for it. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:41] Speaker C: So now what do we do? [00:35:42] Speaker D: And the risk is it's always been this way with lighting design. Right. We're kind of the last ones on the train. The caboose. And so, you know, there's always that pressure to cut budgets on lighting. Always. And so fighting for that budget is. Fighting for that budget is one of the things that we do do. I think we find ourselves doing that quite often, you know, because then you have to re explain it or you have to re justify it, etc. But fighting for that lighting budget in the later parts of, you know, finalizing the project. Super important. [00:36:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And I know we're working on a project with you guys right now where the everyone else in the team is making it impossible for the owner to get what we've all designed. And he literally reached out to us. He's like, why is this so complicated? It's like, welcome to the world of lighting. We'll take care of it. Here's the way to handle it, you know, and that's A whole separate podcast. And for those listening, listen to episode two. Listen to episode three, four, five, six. Like, it just goes on and on and on. But, you know, but you still. In the end, and I tell this story a lot about Children's Museum we did in Louisiana. Right. Like, in the end, we have to not forget that this is about create. Like, in that case, we were creating environment for the kids and ultimately the parents to watch kids in that. Right. Let's not forget that piece, too. [00:37:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:18] Speaker A: But this is a daylight environment for kids to learn and play. And yes, the architect has to make money and the lighting designer has to make Nani and the exhibit fabricator and the engineer and everybody else. But. But sometimes there has to be the conversation about what's right for this type of project, as opposed to penny pinching on an ad service from an engineer or something like that. Right. Like, let's take a second and remember what we're trying to do here. [00:37:54] Speaker C: Well, the hardest part is those things you can't see are the intangibles. Right. But the lighting you can see. Can I show you guys a before and after picture? That's a great example of that. [00:38:03] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:38:04] Speaker C: That you didn't design this, Avi. So sorry. [00:38:08] Speaker A: We, we. We want the success of all lighting. That's the goal of the lighting podcast. [00:38:15] Speaker D: So. Yeah. You don't work with high bay lights much, do you? [00:38:20] Speaker A: No, I. Lit Revolution Brewing Company here in Chicago with fluorescent high bays. [00:38:27] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:38:28] Speaker A: And our fee was paid for by ComEd. [00:38:32] Speaker D: Aw. [00:38:34] Speaker A: I mean, it was just. Yeah. [00:38:37] Speaker C: So here's a great example of the client said to us there. We weren't planning to spend any money on the lobby when we started the project, but when we talked about the visit journey experience, it was make it welcoming, bring the outside in, make it inviting all people to feel welcome here. And you can see on the left, this was the space originally. It was a dark, historic space. Space like the lighting was, didn't accentuate the architecture. It wasn't welcoming. There were sound acoustic panels on the ceiling, the light fixtures that were in the center, that these amazing historic lighting pieces didn't even work. And so look at the difference of what you can do with lighting to really transform that space architecturally, but also from visitor experience that begins your journey before you even go into the exhibits. And I think this just shows the power of lighting to transform a space. [00:39:29] Speaker D: Yeah. The ceiling overhead, we recreated these kind of skylights. You know, they're actually printed fabric that are backlit, but it gave it so much more height. But the other thing that's really cool is these period hand built globes that had, you know, the time and date on them that hadn't worked, I don't know, 40, 50, 60 years. And so we got those restored too. And that light just, it's like a beautiful storytelling element, you know. So, yeah, it's gorgeous. [00:40:08] Speaker A: Well, and it wouldn't be the Lighting Matters podcast without giving credit. Who was the lighting? [00:40:13] Speaker C: Yes, this was available light, of course. Okay. [00:40:15] Speaker A: Yeah, we've had, we've had many folks from Available Light on the podcast, so. [00:40:20] Speaker C: Great. [00:40:21] Speaker A: Yeah, so there was a lighting designer. Very important. [00:40:24] Speaker D: There was, yes, it was. [00:40:25] Speaker C: But we advocated for it to the client and you know, this was a. Increasing their budget. But they, they trusted it, believed in it and the outcome of what they wanted, which was this, you know, welcoming environment that was multi sensory. That said this was a space for everyone and utilizing one of the artifacts of their collection, which is actually their building, this historic building in Boston, they believed in it and you can see the impact. And it's transformed how they use the space, which is also now used for public programming. So those. And special events. So those tables in the center roll out and now they're using it for special events, for big speeches. The lighting transforms the space. It gives it multiple purposes. It can be dark, it can be theatrical. It's just a great way to really invest money in the right space spots of a project. To your point, Abby, in places and areas, you're going to get multiple uses and it's tangible. So I thought that was really important to show. Yeah. [00:41:20] Speaker A: And, and like Kevin said, I, I mean we, we've seen it time and time again. And Lisa, I'm sure you've seen it too. Right. When you look at the grand scheme of a budget, the lighting's typically fairly small, but it is the most impactful thing. And again, this is a lighting designer saying it, but I think you could really look time and time again that, you know, the dollars you spend on light are going to tenfold return on look, feel, interaction, storytelling. Everything else is so like you have to have a solid story, you have to have solid exhibits, you have to have a solid environment. All those things have to exist. You can't just do light. Although. [00:42:05] Speaker D: And the delta, the delta between the cost of poor lighting and good lighting. Right. Is not, it's not the same as, you know, in other areas. So. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:18] Speaker C: And then, and then you have the flip side, Avi, which, this is your project where we tried to create an experience and it wouldn't work without lighting. It literally would not work unless the lighting is done correctly, which you figured out how to do if you had the facility lights on for this mirror maze. The. The trick and the visitor flow, it doesn't work. [00:42:36] Speaker D: Yeah. The effect goes away. [00:42:39] Speaker A: And. And this is one of those. Like, Elise and I just came from the Illuminating Engineering Society conference where I talk a lot about the science of light. [00:42:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:48] Speaker A: And then obviously we have ILD coming up, which is the International association of Lighting Designers, where we talk about the art of light. And this is one of those awesome examples of art and science. Right. Like the. The fact that, like, the first time I went through this thing. Right. My. My. Actually, Ari, my littlest one, who's two went right through the maze without a problem the first time he ever did it, which was like, what? And the other two got lost in it. But the fact that you can get so lost in this, the way it's lit. [00:43:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:22] Speaker A: But then you still have this science element. I'll never forget going and meeting with the head inspector of the city of Chicago with a little model and bringing an exit sign and saying, where do we put the exit sign? Like, it's not possible. Right. This is the city of Chicago, everybody. [00:43:40] Speaker D: Right. [00:43:40] Speaker A: We have. We have millions of $300 exit signs everywhere. And, you know, having to explain the science side of this, that we can't put exit signs in this area. And we were going to light it like an airplane. Right. In case of emergency, follow the path. [00:43:59] Speaker C: We haven't said. For those listening, this is a video, but this is the Numbers in Nature Mirror Maze, just at the Museum of Science and Industry. [00:44:06] Speaker D: And that's what it did brilliantly. And they said, this is great. [00:44:11] Speaker A: Right. And we had that whole conversation with the inspector. Everybody was good. And then we're walking out the door. He's like, remind me again where the exit signs are going. No, no exit signs. But, yeah, I mean, this was so successful that there was a. There's a touring version, too, of this. [00:44:30] Speaker C: Yeah. There's a second one that's traveling around the country. So it's also amazing that you figured out how to light it in a temporary environment that moves. Right. No matter where it goes. It has to go into a black box exhibit space in any museum and still function successfully with lighting that can travel. [00:44:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:50] Speaker B: So cool. I love this picture. [00:44:55] Speaker A: Just in the matter of time, we're coming to the end, but we always like to ask a question of our guests. Which is your favorite illuminated space that you have been or have Seen and want to be. But your favorite illuminated space, your favorite illumination experience. I would say that. Kevin. A.J. [00:45:21] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. [00:45:23] Speaker A: It's a tough one. [00:45:24] Speaker C: I don't know. I can't answer this question, Avi. They're all. I think. I think it's really about. There isn't a favorite, but there's. The successful ones are the ones that help you forget where you are and how you got there. And I think that cannot just. That can be not just in a museum environment or a theater show, a theatrical show, but it could. It could be in a beautiful hotel where you're not sure. You forgot they were in the city of Chicago at this fancy hotel, but you actually feel like you're in Paris because of how the lighting actually exudes an emotion or feeling. So, yeah, I can't really think of a project specifically besides the ones we've worked on together, which obviously are all awesome. [00:46:09] Speaker D: Does it have to be a museum? [00:46:11] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely not. The. One of our podcast guests said the forest, right. With that dapple light. And you're walking in and out of light, and, you know, there's just. You can say that, right. I saw it in both of your faces. Right. You can. [00:46:27] Speaker D: Yeah, right. [00:46:28] Speaker A: Say that. And there's just emotion and feeling that happens. We had another guest talk about a cathedral with the stained glass coming through and just that. That feeling that happens. You know, I would. I have a direct connection to, quite honestly, the latest Disney cruise we just went on. I think Disney has just done an incredible job with their boat. We were on Disney Dream, and it's just top to bottom, a dream environment you live in. And it's down all the way to the hotel room. It was just so well done. And then learning a little bit more from imagineers recently, that's the intention. [00:47:21] Speaker C: From day one, did the lights change in terms of, like a circadian approach throughout the day? So the color temperatures and the. You start to feel. [00:47:34] Speaker A: Not on dream. My understanding is that they have a couple boats coming online soon, and that is intended. And there's some technology coming out from some different manufacturers that we're all aware of that are making it easier for Disney to be able to do that. [00:47:57] Speaker C: Cool. [00:47:57] Speaker A: And price point. Right. They don't have. They have budgets, too, so. [00:48:01] Speaker C: I like the forest example, though, because the textures and the light just are so natural and they still reflect that dimensionality of the floor, the multiple layers. [00:48:12] Speaker B: And just saying it, you feel calm. [00:48:16] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:18] Speaker D: I will find you the array of this. But this was a sculpture in France and It was essentially a concrete tube that was put into the ground at an angle, and then I had this groove carved in it in a very particular way. And almost at every moment of the day, what you saw inside that tube completely changed. And all it did was it was just sunlight and concrete. And so the color changed based on the angle of the sun in and what it was doing inside changed on the base of the sun. It was the most remarkable thing I've ever seen that used light. I mean, I was, like, trying to think. Trying to think what? What? You know? But this. This was this really amazing thing that did the most beautiful thing in the simplest form possible, which is so hard to do. Right. In the very simplest form, you know? [00:49:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:26] Speaker D: But I'll see if I could find somewhere I had it showed exactly how it was throughout the entire day. It was pretty amazing. Wow. [00:49:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I look forward to seeing that. [00:49:37] Speaker A: Well, A.J. and Kevin, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. This is the continuing conversation and making sure that people understand what light can do. Right? Like, they. They see it when it's good, they know when it's bad. But having these conversations that we can start to share and empower your clients, our clients, and the world to better understand how much Lighting Matters is just the goal of this podcast and hopefully successful. And obviously, you guys are doing a great job and explaining to your clients what's possible with light. [00:50:20] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with. With us and with our listeners. [00:50:28] Speaker C: Amazing. Thank you guys for having us. [00:50:29] Speaker A: This was fun, and congratulations on the branding. We're so excited. [00:50:33] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:50:34] Speaker C: Let us know what you think. It's all live today, so awesome. [00:50:38] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Thanks. [00:50:41] Speaker D: All right, thank you. [00:50:42] Speaker C: Bye. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Lighting Matters. As we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time, and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues. [00:51:03] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional IALD lighting designer, such as RBLD or morelights for your next endeavor.