Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast about Lighting matters. Our unflinching conversations uncover the nuances and complexities which shape the craft of lighting design.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: We explore the pivotal whys behind a lighting designer's choices and find honest answers to your most challenging lighting questions. Because lighting matters.
Foreign.
Welcome to the Lighting Matters podcast. I am one of your co hosts, Lisa Reed, with Reed Burkett lighting design in St. Louis.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Hello, Lisa. Thank you. This is Avi Moore coming to you from Chicago with more lights and I'm so excited to have David Woody with us today.
David, you are the Chief Creative vp. Like the title I'm not sure of, but is at the Griffin Museum of Science and Industry and we are all KU grads. So another awesome KU show here today.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah, Rock Talk.
[00:01:14] Speaker C: Well, thank you.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Thank you for joining us. So what is the official title? I apologize.
[00:01:19] Speaker C: The official title is Vice President and Chief Creative Officer for Exhibitions, Collections and Buildings.
It's a lot. It's a lot.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: He's the design boss. That's. That's how I think about it.
[00:01:33] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, I hate the term boss, but yeah, it's. I guess that's part of it.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Design director.
Design.
[00:01:41] Speaker C: You know, the concept of a chief creative officer in a museum is.
Is a little unusual maybe. And I think also the breadth of collections, exhibitions and buildings is a bit unusual as well. In most museums, usually you're very focused on content or you have a facilities person who is really buildings.
But the place that we're at at the Griffin Museum of Science and Industry in our evolution, just return required us to have somebody who fit all of those things.
So it's a little unusual position.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: That's what I picked up on too.
Sorry, it was. What was the first one?
[00:02:32] Speaker C: So exhibitions.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: I got exhibitions and buildings.
[00:02:35] Speaker C: Collections. Collections, which is all the stuff.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: So really it seems like it would take a really special person to have expertise in all of those things. I mean, they're usually separated because those are usually separate people.
So tell us, how did you get to have all of that knowledge?
[00:02:53] Speaker C: I just lied my way into it. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.
Yeah, it is a really unusual situation and I'm really fortunate to be part of it. But the short story is that the museum is going through an incredible amount of growth and evolution as we are Moving towards our 100th birthday in 2033 and post Covid, as all museums were recovering from the impact and being closed for months on end.
And also with a brand new neighbor that we're getting right next door to us, which is the Obama Presidential center, which is a massive project that literally sits right next door to us. It has rejuvenated our opportunities and created a lot of interest in seeing the museum evolve and grow, literally grow and figuratively grow and evolve, to be a place of learning and engagement and experience for generations to come. And so we have a kind of a spotlight that swung from the museum campus, that's downtown Chicago, to what we're now calling the South Museum Campus, and an opportunity to reinvent ourselves.
We're 92 years old as of this year, and that really is growth in all kinds of ways. The stories we tell, the content that we produce, the tools that we use to do that, the collection that we have, which is the repository of artifacts about the development of the industrial world, and then the buildings, the physical footprint of our building and our campus.
So it's all happening at once. And really, the thread that ties all that together is the idea of narrative and emotion and storytelling, which are obviously themes that you guys are familiar with.
And so it meant that there needed to be, for lack of a better term, a singular vision, a singular point of leadership with not only the aesthetic, but the content development and the points of view on science and narrative and learning.
So I'm the luckiest guy who, you know, showed up to the interview, I guess, and so they were, for better or for worse, they hired me.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: Well, and, David, tell us a little bit about your background. So KU alum. Yeah. And.
And. And then what? And then how, you know, what. What got you to where you are?
[00:05:29] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you.
So graduated from KU with a degree in fine arts, but really sonography, my focus. So I was a theater kid and immediately took a hard left turn and never really went into the theater world, but got a job working for Disney.
When I. During my spring break of my senior year, and much to the displeasure of some of my professors at ku, I went this other direction and moved to Orlando and started my career working for Disney, which was a really. It was like just having a job, just getting a job that just snowballed into incredible opportunities to use all the skills that we learned in the theater. Storytelling, immersive environment, design. I had a little bit of a background in architecture because I started studying architecture and then switched to sonography in my junior year. And so that meant that I knew how to draft. This is pre autocad.
So I got these incredible gigs at Disney supporting art directors and interior designers and people like that, and then evolved into sort of growing beyond Disney a little bit and went to Universal. I ended up working for Universal four times in my career so far. Kind of the nature of work at that time. You like did a six month gig and then you moved on, stumbled into MTV Networks and Nickelodeon and had a chance to be there right when I did some film and TV stuff related to Nickelodeon, some broadcast stuff. And then that was right at a time that Paramount bought MTV Networks, Jones, Nickelodeon, MTV, VH1 and. Or at least at that time. And they were developing content for their other line of business which they had bought the Kings Parks, the Kings theme parks, Kings Dominion, Kings island and turned them into Paramount's parks. So Paramount's Great America, Paramount's Kings Island, I can't remember because they've all been sold, you know, a bunch of times. But anyway, so they were. They wanted to do Nickelodeon attractions in these areas. So that I can remember one day they walked onto one of the sound stages that were at Universal Studios in Orlando.
The buildings are now the Blue Man Studios, I think, but those were originally built for Nickelodeon broadcast. And they came on and they just asked the creative teams that were working on shows like does anybody have any idea how to design a theme park?
And I was just like, well, I worked at Disney, so I can do a little bit. And so I was lucky enough to be part of this really cool process. Then that just snowballed back to Universal Islands of Adventure. I spent five years working on that project.
I went to work for Warner Brothers. They had their own theme park group.
I lived in India for a year designing the first, in theory, the first theme park in India and then ended up sort of back at Universal for a little bit.
Found myself without a job and made a contact at what at that time was called the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.
And they hired me the first time and I said, I'll come live in Chicago for a couple years. Fell in love with the museum and ended up staying 10 years and then saw a shiny object at DreamWorks Animation and left.
Went there as a creative director.
They then got bought by Universal. I was back at Universal again, working on Universal Beijing Resort.
Things like Kung Fu Fighting Pandas and Flying Dragons and Transformers.
Really Amazing Journey did that for eight years and then transitioned to Epic Universe, which just recently opened. And I was part of the team that brought how to Train youn Dragons Land from concept up to the point of construction. And then Covid happened and the world got crazy. And there was a new president at the Museum of Science and Industry named Chevy Humphrey who called me on the phone at 8:30 on a Sunday morning. I lived in Orlando at the time and, and said, I'm sitting in this big empty museum. Nobody's here because it's Covid and we're not even open. And I keep seeing your name on drawings and stuff and I'm just curious if there was ever anything that you ever didn't get to do. And I said, well, I haven't even been in your museum for 10 years, so thanks, but I'm not sure I'm going to be much help to you. And she said, oh, you might be a surprise.
We ended up talking for a couple hours and she said, yeah, I think I'd love to keep talking to you because you've given me a lot of clues. And little did I know she had reignited a fire in me. I never fell out of love with the museum.
And three months later I resigned from Universal and I've been here four years since then. So that's probably a longer answer than you wanted. But that's. It's an interesting journey because I really have straddled this commercial design world and this kind of non commercial. It's very commercial and it's its way, a museum world. And people always say, why did you change industries? And I say, I didn't change industries. I'm just in a different part of the spectrum of the immersive theme storytelling world.
And so it's all the same. The same process, the same vendors, in many cases, the same strategy, the same creative visioning. And ultimately you're all working towards a project. So it's just a different way to tell stories.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: That's amazing.
I'm still like you. You have this unique set of skills that allows you to do that. And I'm. I'm sort of stuck at the beginning where you said your professors were disappointed that you went to Disney. That blows my mind because that was like exciting thing for, you know, maybe an architectural engineer to go do that.
[00:11:34] Speaker C: Well, and I love that you're bringing me back to this because it's really an important part of my kind of psyche is there. There was this moment, and I've talked to Avi about this as we've reminisced some of our professors that we had. But I think that when. What I learned is I grew up as a theater kid and I grew up in Shawnee, Kansas, and I think my world was pretty small in terms of what storytelling meant beyond just the theater. Like, I was a theater kid and theater in a park in Kansas City was where I kind of cut My teeth being interested. I was never interested in being an actor or anything like that. I always knew I wanted to paint sets and build sets and draw, and I always wanted to be an architect. And then, as I said, I studied architecture and learned how to draft and then transitioned into set design. And at the time, there was a professor that was a kind of on named Jaroslav Molina, and he was Polish, and he was a professor for I think, three of my four years, if I remember correctly. And he wanted to teach sonography, sets, lights and costume.
And that wasn't. I believe I could be wrong in this, but I don't think that's how the. The degree was set up previously. But I just happened to be there at the time. So that you really had to learn how to design sets, lights and costumes as a. No matter what your. Your specific interest or discipline was in the theater. So I learned all that. I went through that. I was the absolute worst student in the world.
And.
But I learned so much. And I remember very distinctively seeing this opportunity.
This guy had a card table set up in the lobby of the Craft and prior theater, and he's. And it said, hiring singers and dancers for Disney World.
And he was sitting there all by himself. And I went up to him and said, do you by chance ever hire designers? He goes, I'm glad you asked. And he said, yeah, and we do. And that's not my thing, but if you give me your resume, I'll take it back to me to Florida, to the recruiting team that's down there. And yeah, we do. We hire people to do all kinds of stuff. And two weeks later, I get this phone call.
Anyway, anyway, fast forward to. I went there. I'd never been to Florida. I'd never been to Disney, any park. I'd only been to World of Fun. And by the way, I worked at Worlds of Fun in the summer. So, like, I love theme parks.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: I might have met you there.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: And ultimately, when I made the announcement to my advisors, there was. It was met with this kind of reaction, like you are selling your soul. You know, way you. You've got the heart of a theater person. Why would you sell your soul to do this? And it really has resonated in me and it bounces around in my head to this day of. Of like it. It was one of those defining moments that really made me question everything in some ways, because. But then, as I come to realize many years later, not only am I really glad I made the move, I miss the theater. I still feel very much connected to the theater in a lot of ways, as I was describing earlier. But I really.
I realized that not everybody understands how broad the ability to tell stories in a built environment is. It can be in a theme park, it can be a movie experience, it can be a TV show.
There's all these ways that people engage with stories in the built environment. Or you sit. You sit passively and watch it happen on a screen or on a stage, or you can walk into it, or in the case of a museum, you can be part of navigating your own story at your own pace in a built environment. But they all have that core common thing. So I credit the theater background, and all of those people at KU put up with me being a terrible student as building that idea in my head and giving me a chance to see that bigger picture and go off and explore it.
And I dread the day that I have to get a real job sometimes.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: I don't know. It looks like you might make it.
[00:15:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, so thank you for asking.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: I do find it so incredible how in the theater, I mean, I went through the same thing, right? Like the theatrical training, the storytelling, the.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: The.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: The thing I always talk about when I meet new, new people in the lighting world is I can tell you what it should feel like, what it should look like, what the story is.
The technology doesn't matter.
The technology is. Is just technology, but none of that matters without the story that you're trying to tell.
And that's what I think. KU pushed in me more than anything else. And I'm finding that for my staff who went to DePaul theater programs or anything, right? Like, it's about that story. And, David, the one thing that I've always enjoyed about you is you always come back to that story, and you're 100% right. Everything we do in architecture has some kind of story connected to it, and our jobs is to maintain that story and keep that story alive through completion. And then hopefully, you can maintain that story. Right. Whether it's a restaurant or a museum exhibit or a theme park.
[00:17:07] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. And I always say, when people ask me or they're trying to figure out, what do you do and how does that make sense? I would say, well, the best way I can just tell you is that there are two parts to my career, and I think this is true of all of us who work in the theater, and maybe just designers generally, is that I'm a storyteller, but I'm a problem solver, and I've been lucky enough to be a producer at Universal and then also be a creative director. And those are, in theory, kind of left brain, right brain, opposites in some ways.
So being able to kind of navigate back and forth. But I think that that is also just a different way of saying, you know, a storyteller and a. And a problem solver. And one of. One of the things I love is that in the theater, you know, you're given this challenge, this problem to solve, and you just use your creative toolbox. This toolbox we all carry around with all these tools and creative tools to figure out size, form, shape, color, texture, those things. So.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: So. So I love the language that you just put around that, because we talk about lighting being art and science or left brain, right brain. And I like that it's storytelling and problem solving. That's. That's really what lighting is. And, Avi, we were just talking about this yesterday, how it's a. It's kind of a rare profession that you need to have both of those strengths and how people come at it from these sort of weird sideways angles, right? Like, I ended up in an architectural engineering program, but I was there at Kansas at a time that they had a really strong connection to the architecture and design side of it, which they don't now in the program. But, you know, I related to the architecture and design side and ended up in lighting, even though I'm an engineer. And then, you know, you guys were in theater departments, but, you know, Brett, you sort of connected with the technical side of things. Like, I don't know, it's just interesting to me how people find lighting.
And we've been talking about, is there a way that we can do a better job of connecting the folks, you know, with a theater background with the architecture and engineering? You know, how can we. How can we find the lighting people out there who are looking for.
Looking for this field, this opportunity to meld both. Both sides of their brains?
[00:19:36] Speaker C: I have a couple reactions to everything you just said. One is that I think there is this naive assumption that lighting is the thing you add when you're done with everything else, whether it's in the theater or it's a piece of architecture or an exhibit. Like, we did all that work. Now get the lighting designer in here to put some lights on it. And that is such a unfortunate way to think about the importance that lighting plays in storytelling, especially in environments that people are literally in, that they're walking through, that they're engaging in, and how important lighting is as not just the top layer, but as a fundamental piece of creating a mood and story and immersion and atmosphere.
And I'm trying to be as eloquent as your last podcast with my pal Kevin Snow and AJ who were so eloquent, I listened to it, like, two hours ago. I was like, there is no way I'm ever going to be able to talk the way Kevin does about lighting. Because that's. Because I don't consider myself a lighting designer. But I think you're. We're hitting on that. That theme that is so important, by the way. I just have to tell you, this is funny. I was talking to my husband, and he said, what are you doing today? And I said, oh, I'm gonna be on a pod. I've never been on a podcast before, by the way, so thank you.
[00:20:57] Speaker B: Yay. Thank you.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: If you can see my armpits right now, I'm, like, so nervous, but you're making it very easy. But he said, well, what is it about? And I said, well, it's about lighting design and why lighting matters.
And, you know, I'm not a lighting designer, but they're going to talk to me for an hour or so, and every. And without skipping a beat, he goes, who's going to want to listen to you talk about that?
I was like. I was like, my thoughts exactly. But I think we're hitting on a really important note there, which is that lighting means a lot more to you than you think. And I know I say that as what I would say as a space designer, but also just as an art director and a creative director.
But there's another thing I said. There were two things that you sparked. 1. The other one was the most intimidating thing about what little lighting I did know and learn about in school was that it was this confluence of technology, information, and creativity. And I've always admired lighting designers, and I know that's a really broad. There's a lot of people involved in lighting that aren't just necessarily just designers, but that I'm always amazed at the level of technological information and just pure data and hardware that you have to know and understand as a lighting design designer. And I'm so glad I don't have to carry all that around with me, because it's a lot. Somebody asked me one time, I'm sure you guys have stumbled into a version of this. Somebody said to me, well, Woody is. He's a theater guy. He can do the lights, too. And I was like, you need a professional for that. I. It is. That world moves so far beyond me. So Fast. The evolution of technology and the way that you achieve the ultimate purity of. Of the lighting experience, I'm thinking in a theatrical context. But, you know, the tool. The methods and tools have changed so much.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Oh, I'm. I'm grateful that that's. We. We focus on lighting because there. There is so much. There's. There's so much technology. It's changing. There are so many products.
I'm glad I don't also have to know plumbing fixtures and, you know, ceilings and whatever other building materials, because, yeah, if it's all I can do to keep up with the lighting and the lighting controls.
[00:23:16] Speaker C: I guess in some ways, the way I describe the intimidating aspects of lighting being such a technology and art is really true of all parts of being a designer in the theatrical context.
So maybe just the ones in lighting are a little more intimidating for me because it's less familiar. But we're doing an exhibit right now. I can't. I can't tell you what it is because we're not there yet. It opens in January, and it's really about another aspect of design that is very common in the theatrical world. And I was blown away by the level of technology that was being deployed in the execution of this particular art form in the theater.
That was shocking to me. And so I'll leave you hanging on what that is.
Coming to Chicago in January.
I mean, there's only, like, five different kinds of design in the theater. Really.
Sound, costume, lighting, set design. There's probably more, and I apologize to those Projections. Projection thinking.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:21] Speaker C: So it's one of those. It's one of all of those. So anyway, the. The point is that technology is seeping into our lives in. In many ways. And just to give a quick pitch, you know, what I spend a lot of my time thinking about as a museum person is how do we connect with science in our daily lives? Science or industry? Because science is everywhere. Just because you stopped learning it in school or college doesn't mean that science isn't integrated into your life and every single thing you do in some ways, and extrapolating those stories out in whatever the industry is, we just happened in this particular exhibit I'm alluding to. We just happen to take a really specific look through a very unique lens of creativity of art and science.
So lighting is certainly right there in that story arc.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Well, Lisa and I were just at a conference where Randy Burkett. Lisa's one of Lisa's partner. Partners, officially.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Colleague.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: Sure, colleague.
Randy was inducted as a fellow of ild and he Said something that's really stuck with me is, and I'm paraphrasing, but ultimately, thank you for letting me use both brains.
You said it. I talk a lot about. I actually used it this morning in a meeting. I had the right and left brain side.
You really have to blend those two.
But I want to bring it back to the story.
I would actually argue that the application of light to tell a story is constantly growing, but it's an art form. Right? And we don't want to.
All too often the idea of lighting gets locked into technology and where it goes, but the selective use and the appropriate use to tell the story is kind of the key that it all needs to come from.
And it, it's just, it's often. I mean, again this morning we were kind of talking about a kitchen for a restaurant and it instantly turned to the technology. And I said, but they just need to be able to cook.
The, the storyline for the entire restaurant is that this is the place the cook works, but just outside is this environment that you cannot let that cooking environment interrupt.
And so again, like I brought everybody back to this idea of the story of what we're trying to do. And yeah, it should just be a two by two $50 thing in the kitchen. But. But again, like, how is that not gonna bleed? But also make sure that the story just outside the door doesn't happen.
And I was like, how many of you have been in a restaurant where the door to the kitchen opens and you look at your watch, you're like, right. Like it's kind of a weird way of talking about. But I just want to make sure like it's that key that a designer brings in, a lighting designer brings in that comes back to the story and less about the technology.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: I want to take this in a completely different direction. But also something that's been really interesting and exciting to me in the field lately is talking about equity in design and that that cook is. Is there for presumably eight hours a day, probably more all day, every day. And so we want to pay as much attention to their atmosphere and what kind of conditions they're living and working under as we are to the atmosphere that, you know, you may have, like you said, interrupt by opening that door.
So like, I don't know, it's. To me, there's so many things to think about and always that's what always makes it really interesting to me.
[00:28:26] Speaker C: Well, there's a, there's an interconnectedness. I don't know if this is exactly the point you're trying to make. But what I was thinking about when you were talking, Avi, is there is an interconnectedness to spaces and humans in those spaces and the roles that the spaces and humans play in. In the experience that's being created Back a house. You know, we oftentimes say back a house, front of house, audience chamber on the stage. You know, there's. There's all these different ways to define these spaces, that kind of segment, but really they're all kind of collectively part of an experience that you create. You can't have a kitchen, you can't have a great restaurant experience without a kitchen or without a staff that prepares food without waiters. And, you know, we're always all. We're all putting on a show in some way. And the environment that you're asking people to step into is so defined in part by the lighting condition, the mood that that's creating, the physical environment that you're walking through. It's all connected.
I love the analogy of the swinging door opening in the kitchen because I think it's even easy to relate to because we've all had it.
And by the way, I. You just gave me a flashback. I just. I literally had to write it down because I need to email somebody afterwards. But I walked in the U505 exhibit giving a tour yesterday to a potential donor, and the work lights were on.
And here I set up this amazing story because I love taking people on a tour of that submarine. And I walked in and the work lights were on. I was like, what the actual hell is happening here? Because it just. It ruined the moment. It ruined the moment. And.
Yeah, so somebody's going to get an email about that. But.
But it just speaks to kind of the same thing. Was the equivalent of the kitchen door opening and.
[00:30:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:13] Speaker C: And scene.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: Well, I always share, and I'm sure I've told you, but since we're talking about the Griffin Museum of Science and Industry, being a Jew, I don't have my learning Santa Claus didn't exist. Sorry for all those who are listening who just learn that.
But my childhood memory of and just destroying similar was figuring out that the coal mine was actually just one floor below, as opposed to going miles and miles underneath the museum. And I figured it out when the banner. I could see the banner going up and moving real fast as the elevator came up. And it was just one of those.
[00:30:59] Speaker C: Like, well, first of all, I don't know who told you that BS, but you go 600ft down into a working coal mine and I'm I'm sticking with that story no matter what. So.
[00:31:10] Speaker A: Well, my boys, I took my boys on that, you know, the same kind of age that I was the first time I went on that exhibit. And they, you know, blown away and just loved it. And you know, especially with now as the story, you know, as equity, the story changes now, which is really great.
Again, those in Chicago who haven't been in a while, like what what David and team are doing it@griffin MSI is just amazing. I mean, it's childhood favorite place in the world.
[00:31:45] Speaker C: Do you mind if I go on if a coal mine. Go off on a coal mine tangent for a second because I think you'll both appreciate this. So the coal mine is the first exhibit that ever was at Griffin MSI. Really? Yeah. It's 92 years old and it has virtually not changed.
Wait, I didn't say that. Right. It has not had changed virtually at all. And it's. It's life. And so it is the same experience that you experience as a kid that a kid experiences today that experienced it in 1933, the day it opened.
And what I love about it is there's such a great legacy. And first, I'll just give you the a little bit of a tidbit. We're in the process of reinventing the coal mine for generations in the future with different kinds of technologies that can capture the same experience that you experienced, recreate those in a whole new way, that it's meaningful and engaging in depth and all those things that.
That's one of our big master planned projects. We have 29amazing big projects that we're going to do leading up to our 100th birthday.
The coal mine really has an important story to tell because although it's about coal and coal is a situation, but it's also representative of an amazing amount of innovation that took place up to the point that got us coal, that a few billion people extra can live on the planet because somebody figured out that coal makes steam and steam makes things move. And so the industrial revolution, for all of the kind of impact it's had on our climate and our world and our planet, is still super relevant. And it's an innovation we're celebrating. And that's part of what we do at msi. We celebrate innovation, but also recognize that the challenges and problems, problems that coal has caused is that innovation is what will figure out how to fix those problems and lead us into the next generations of all of the other ways that the planet gives us energy.
So that is the story that we're telling and we're letting the coal mine be the anchor into that story because it's just really fun. But I will tell you this tidbit. So in 1948, Walt Disney came to the museum and, and he was a friend of Lennox Lohr, who was the president of the museum from 1940 to 1968, I think. So those are some pretty pivotal years, all through World War II. And he didn't bring the coal mine there. It was original to 1933, but he knew that Walt Disney would appreciate it. And this is in 1948. So Walt is there. And Walt actually wrote us a letter that said, thank you for the tour. The museum is amazing. I can't stop thinking about that coal mine experience where I got to go down into a coal mine and get in a train and ride through and watch the people digging coal out. And they stopped and they told me the story on alcohol. And then I saw the machines working and. And I like to think that maybe he was inspired because when Disneyland opened in what, 1950?
Yeah, 55, 56, something like that, that it had a wild mine train ride. And I think it was called Colorful Canyons or like, God, I can't remember the name of it, something Canyons. And it was a wild mine train ride. And they still have one. And there's different versions in different Disney parks.
I think a. That Disney owes us a huge amount of royalties probably. But also that, that this is the, the bridge back to that.
What we're doing in the minds of a guest isn't necessarily, that's a theme park and this is a museum and that's theater. It's all connected to this belief that these stories, you know, are meaningful and we have this connection to them. The way that you talk about it affected you as a kid. And I hear that story all the time. No matter where I go, people have to tell me their story about being in the coal mine.
So these experiences and no matter what your point of entry is to those, whether it's lighting design or environment design or media design or just as a guest, they all have an important part of building those stories and those experiences.
Thank you for that tangent.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: That was amazing.
I love that.
Well, Avi, I love that, you know, lighting isn't the only thing that can take you out of the, the story of space. It was the scroll scrolling thing that you saw.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: Whew.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: It wasn't lighting that screwed it up this time.
But also I love it that you said, David, we're, we're all putting on a show. It's just different levels of.
Of theater.
[00:36:28] Speaker C: I. There's three things that I love. I love theme parks, I love museums, and I love airports, as weird as that is to say. And I can never not have this feeling when I'm in any of those places. I was just in the Houston airport earlier this week or end of last week, and I had this. This moment. I didn't even realize it's happening to me about kind of the show of it all.
And the experiences are very intentionally different at all of those places. We have different purposes for being there. We have different ways that we're engaged in and environment. But they all are kind of this show. And especially airports.
[00:37:06] Speaker B: If you've seen.
[00:37:07] Speaker C: I know you guys probably travel a lot, you're seeing this evolution in airports and the experience that people are creating in airports, they're trying to bottle the same thing that we've all known in the theatrical environment world is that that experience equals your perception of value in some ways, and that you can make an emotional connection to something that is loosely a story in an airport just as easily as you can in other ways. So storytelling is everywhere.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: I couldn't agree more. It's funny because. It's funny you say airports because Lisa and I are both working on different parts of O'. Hare.
[00:37:51] Speaker C: Oh, cool.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: So we're on the Terminal 2 team with Studio Ord, which is led by Studio Gang and scb Corrigan Millhouse. I think. I think I legally have to say all their names every time I describe it. But, you know, their design was an orchard. Ord is called Orchard Field.
It was Orchard Field.
[00:38:17] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:38:18] Speaker A: But Orchard Field.
[00:38:20] Speaker C: But that's what the Ord came from.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: Ord came from Orchard. And I. You know, their design with the wood and the trees, it's just.
It was an incredible design. When you look at the. The designs that came out from. From the other firms, and they very much are trying to tell a story. Right. I would. I would say that the. The most recent airport that I've been to that's new is. Is LaGuardia. Right. And I think HOK they're also trying to tell a story, but also an homage to. Look, look what we had to do to make this work.
I mean, every time I walk into the airport, I think about how the heck did they do this in this little piece of land? And I feel like that building says that in some way. Right? It's telling that story of, yeah, we did this in this little tiny space and it's very much like, how do you apply that story? In each one of these locations, there's a.
[00:39:26] Speaker C: You just reminded me there's a beautiful.
The main Beijing airport. I think they have, like, 100 international airports in Beijing, but the one that I always used working for when I was working for Universal, it has this beautiful undulating roof that is. It's just gorgeous. And the space is. They're not big, square and boxy. And I remember being with somebody who I was, you know, traveling with, and they said, I don't know why they wasted all that money to do that. And I said, yeah, but think about how it makes you feel. Like it's soft on the edges, it's providing some level of comfort, and there is some. Something subconscious that's happening in the mood that they're creating. That is a type of story in some ways. And I am also reminded about the. Of the.
The old TWA terminal that's now a hotel. I've never personally been in it, but I love the aesthetic of that. I mean, talk about it. It was so meaningful as a space that they kept using it for something else because people love going there, and the way they make you feel.
Makes them feel. Yeah. So when I ever. I mentioned how much I love Air Force, people always laugh. But then I have to explain all this to them. Like, these. These places are significant. And probably, like you guys, I spend a lot of time in airports, so they're. They're part of a narrative for me personally. And.
Yeah.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Did you say. Do you have a favorite. Is the Beijing one your favorite?
[00:40:57] Speaker C: A favorite airport?
[00:40:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:59] Speaker C: Well, so the. Have you been in the new terminal in Orlando? At Orlando?
[00:41:03] Speaker B: I don't know if I've been there. I've seen so many pictures.
[00:41:06] Speaker C: Yeah. So if you have a chance to stumble through that, that's pretty impressive.
And I. I know that there are a lot of airports in China that would probably just make us all salivate with the incredible design. I'm trying to think.
I tend to be in the same, like, six airports over and over and over and over and over.
But I can. I'll tell you one thing that I do remember really well. The Ladies International Terminal. I think it's called the Bradley Terminal. That is not new.
But at the time that I was working with Moment Factory on a. On the Kung Fu Panda Land of Awesomeness in Beijing, and they kept talking about this project that they were doing at the airport in lax, and I was kind of dismissive of it in that. What are you guys doing? With media wayfinding. Like what I just didn't quite have. I think it was pretty early. This is 12 years ago. 10ish. 12ish years ago.
And then I experienced that media, which maybe right now, if I went back there, I might not have the same reaction because we're kind of so used to media in those spaces. But I remember just being overwhelmed.
Do you guys know the installation I'm talking about? It's the giant columns. You've seen it. You've seen it for sure. Oh, the giant columns, not the outside ones in the.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I haven't been in that terminal.
[00:42:23] Speaker C: International terminal. And you walk by these giant media columns. They're not traditional screen shapes. They're freestanding. And then they are supported by sort of a traditional mounted LED media boards, and there's a story they're telling. It feels almost like advertisement. And then you realize, oh, no, this is mood setting. It's really nice. If you Google it, you'll see what I mean.
And they hit me that, that there. Some designers made a conscious choice to deploy this kind of technology in a way that was about creating a moot an environment.
And I mean, what an interesting exercise to go through with the work that you guys must have done at o' Hare to have this seemingly chaotic, stressful experience and then use the creative tools that you have to try and counteract that so that people have a positive experience.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:43:25] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm sure that was part of your creative conversations.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: Honestly, we have talked a lot about using the ceiling as a map.
[00:43:36] Speaker C: I don't even know what that means, but I love it.
[00:43:37] Speaker A: Crazy. Yeah. And I probably shouldn't say anything else, but. Well, but we're trying to find stories. Right? Like, and. And I think that it's. It's interesting in, you know, even some of the restaurants and things that we've done. It's really like, how.
How can we take your story and support it? Right.
[00:43:58] Speaker C: And.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: And I think Lisa and I, we. Lisa, we've talked about stories in architecture in the past, and it's. It's like, you know, oh, yeah, it's because it's a studio gang building or because it's a helmet yawn building. That's the story. But there's a reasoning that happens, and we, we as lighting designers can support that and, and modify it and. And. And adjust it.
So we, we talked and you probably heard, and I. It comes back to this idea that we're the fourth visual professional in the built environment in museum, restaurant, hotel, airport, you name it.
You have Architects or designers creating the space. You have interior professionals, you have landscape, landscape designers.
But then lighting is that element that kind of brings it all together and, and dare I say, solidifies the story. It could be a little loose without that final grounding element that makes it. And the sun, which you can barely see right there, but the sun is light too. And how do you use that light into those spaces to maintain that story and potentially even have. It's often story during the day and a story at night.
[00:45:30] Speaker B: And I think it's like maybe like your husband indicated, David, it's who really cares who's really thinking about this. But you're thinking about it when the kitchen door opens or when someone left the work lights on. So somebody's gotta be thinking about it, right?
[00:45:48] Speaker C: And maybe the beautiful thing about lighting design, it is this abstract idea for the common person that wouldn't necessarily know how to tell you and. But it's such a, you know, an integral part of how they're feeling and how they're responding in all kinds of spaces. Doesn't matter if it's a post office or your house or some of these commercial spaces that we've been talking about.
And you don't have to be able to know it's there maybe to feel it.
That's the beautiful thing about it, I think, is it, is it gives it a different kind. Oh, go ahead.
[00:46:26] Speaker B: No, I was just like wanting to ask. We told you earlier that we were going to ask about your favorite illuminated space.
[00:46:34] Speaker C: Oh yeah, yeah.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: It's like a good time to ask you that.
[00:46:38] Speaker C: Okay. It's great. Well, I told you I was going to go with my gut. Like the first thing that popped in my head. And I think if I had really thought about it, I probably wouldn't have said this, but this is where I'm going, is that when I was a kid growing up in a suburb of Kansas City, we used to go at Christmas, we would load up in the car and we would drive down to the Country Club Plaza, which is this beautiful, fresh, Spanish themed, architectural shopping center. I think we. I don't know if this is true or not, but it was like the first outdoor shopping center, you know, hopefully, at least in my memory, and hopefully every time I went, it was covered in snow, it was beautiful. And every Christmas they would line all the buildings with lights.
And this is a place that we would go all the time when grandma was in town. We'd go down to the Plaza, we'd go see movies at Plaza and it just looked like the plaza, it was beautiful in that context, but Christmas, it came alive in a magical way that was just different just because of those colored lights. And it just resonates with me.
And it's so much a part of what Christmas means to me as a kid. It reminds me my childhood. It reminds me a place. And I don't go to Kansas City very often anymore because my family doesn't live there anymore. But it's where I grew up and lived for a long time. But I always drive through the plaza, and if it's not Christmas, and I don't think I've even been there during Christmas since maybe I left ku, But I always think about that and how God, I to just want. Want to see those lights on again.
So I know that's not really the kind of lighting maybe that we're talking about, but it is a. It is all about memory and mood and atmosphere and that perception of the beauty of lighting.
And. And I will say that the blue lights were always my favorite.
I love the blue lights.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: No, that is perfect. And it's such a big deal growing up near Kansas City, but not close enough to go see the lights every year. We would sometimes watch on TV the night they flipped them on. It was. It was a big deal. The whole community rallied around that.
[00:48:49] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, it was a big deal. You Thanksgiving night, you drive down to the plaza, you'd find a spot and you'd walk to the center, and then they would turn them on and everybody just have the moment and then. Yeah, you just hope like crazy it was going to be snowing or something.
And I'm probably glad, I guess, if I really admit it, that I haven't been able to go back at Christmas and see it in all these years, because it still stays so magical in my brain. Thank you for asking. That's a good question. Yeah.
[00:49:18] Speaker A: The last couple of years when I was at ku, they didn't have any snow with the lights on.
[00:49:25] Speaker B: So.
[00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I would think also that that snow.
I love that moment. Like the snow and the light and the.
Yeah, but it's the.
It's the emotion, the memory, the connection that we ask this question, because that's what comes every single person we've asked.
It's a, like, core feeling, emotional element that everyone's brought up, and it's awesome. And as you describe. As you describe the plaza, it reminded me of other people's descriptions of their favorite illuminated spaces and the emotion attached to it, and it's very similar, and it's just fascinating. It's one of many things I love about having people on this podcast and being able to talk because you get this.
This connection when you ask this question to.
It's just. I'm having a hard time getting the words out of my mouth, but it's just really, really cool, and I appreciate you sharing that.
[00:50:39] Speaker C: Yeah, my pleasure. And I can see what you mean about how people interpret it would interpret your question differently.
You probably have a lot of people you'd ask that to that think very much about, like, being in a space like a lighting condition that was designed and planned versus maybe one that's more outdoors or the moonlight or something that maybe they link back to a memory, kind of like what I did.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: So it's been surprising.
It's been surprising to me because I think that people will name a space. It's surprising to me how often they don't, you know, it's the woods or like you said, all the things you said. The moon or.
[00:51:23] Speaker C: I will tell you another one. Can I give you a second answer?
[00:51:25] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:51:26] Speaker C: Okay, good. So I had an experience recently that was just amazing. I had the chance to go see the Jesus Christ Superstar performance at the Hollywood bowl that Cynthia Erivo and Adam Lambert were in. Yeah, it was incredible. And I've seen that show like, I don't know, 500 times like everyone else. It's not new, you know, And I thought I wouldn't go see it again. I was probably in about as far back in Hollywood Bowl.
I'm pretty sure I was a mile away from the stage. I had to watch the show through binoculars. There is something so powerful about that show and that story. And we all know the Hollywood bowl, it's got the shape and we all know it. And I just remember thinking, wow, they're going to try and put this. This musical. Like, how tough for a designer. Whether it's a lighting designer or a physical designer, you got to compete with that big shape and you gotta. You gotta light it. You can't ignore it.
But I was mesmerized by the powerful lighting design. I have no idea who did it. I'm sure you Google and find out. And the way that that show was good, all the parts were singing together.
Incredible performance, the venue. I forgot I was at the Hollywood Bowl. It was a concert.
The way that show was supposed to be.
Me and, you know, 15,000 other people were kind of like, having that moment together.
And it speaks volumes to the power of lighting because they lit it like it was a concert, not like it was a piece of theater. And I think that that really stuck to Matt. So that, that's just maybe a recent example that is more true to the kind of built environment type lighting that you're talking about.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: Also a great answer.
[00:53:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
Can I ask you guys a question? Because I. I could only think of three good questions and. And so I want to ask you guys a question.
[00:53:18] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:53:18] Speaker C: You know, given where I work, that I spend a lot of time talking to people that represent a lot of different kinds of industries, from scientists to people who own companies and are engaged in the process of creating things that we all need in our lives. You know, industry, we kind of operate under the context that science discerns the laws of nature and then industry applies them to the needs of humankind.
So that's, that's the intersection we live at too, which is pretty exciting. Somebody thinks of, does great things, and then industry figures out how to make them usable for the rest of us. That's kind of science or data license. So in the context of that, I was thinking, what do you think about as the next big technological evolution in lighting?
Maybe the last one was. I'm being a little naive in saying this, but was led.
That changed everything in many ways. But what do you think when you think about the horizon? What's going to change your profession?
What do you think that might be? Any guesses?
[00:54:24] Speaker A: I got one. Unless you want to go. Lisa.
[00:54:26] Speaker B: Mine's a little out there, but my son is a student studying battery research and I would love it if we could be a little more untethered and not wired to things. So if we can get there, that would make me very happy.
[00:54:43] Speaker C: That's a great answer. I love that answer.
[00:54:46] Speaker A: There is a Tesla coil at the Griffin Museum of Science and Industry.
Hang your fluorescent lamp and get it.
[00:54:53] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:54:57] Speaker A: I'm going to go outside the technology a bit to more. I hope and pray that the profession will get bigger because the race to budgets, the race to technology, the race to application, is going to require more design thinking. And I hope that you're going to see lighting design elevated to a new place, which will then let the technology be used a little bit better, a little bit more efficiently and whatever else may come.
But I think that this last revolution of technology has been save energy. Save energy. Save energy. Oh, everybody's got a thing to save energy and we're kind of beyond that. And I don't, I don't. I wish I knew the next, you know, laser LEDs or whatever might come. I remember seeing one a few years ago. Was like, oh, cool, laser led. And then was gone.
But I guess I hope that we see more lighting design and that we, you know, through the podcast, through these conversations, through hopefully other organizations, elevating the professional lighting design. So it is less. I hope I'm using the word right, it's less ethereal and more. Well, these are design professionals. You have an architect, you have a lighting designer, you have a landscape designer and an interior designer. To make this happen, that. That would be my. My hope, and we're trying to do everything we can to do that.
[00:56:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, you're working on that one.
[00:56:51] Speaker C: I love both of your answers because it speaks to that core idea, which is what I spend a lot of my day thinking about, which is that, you know, industry evolves because of ideation and innovation, and innovation starts with having an imagination and believing that you can do something.
So both of what you said suggests that, you know, you. You have this belief that something can change and be possible, and that then you'll innovate ways to get there or somebody will certainly. Hopefully it's you guys. But, yeah, love the answer. Thank you for that.
[00:57:26] Speaker B: Thanks for asking. It's fun to get when a. When a guest turns the mic on.
[00:57:32] Speaker A: Well, David, thank you for joining us on your very first podcast recording.
[00:57:40] Speaker B: You're amazing. You should do this again.
[00:57:42] Speaker A: Yeah, Easy, right? Just to have a conversation.
[00:57:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:46] Speaker C: Well, you guys made it very comfortable, and I really appreciate that because I honestly didn't know what I was walking into. I listen to a lot of podcasts, like a lot of people, and it just feels like such a intimidating situation, but this is super comfortable. I kind of forgot that we were even, like, recording this. It kind of felt like we were just having a conversation, so thank you for that.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:58:29] Speaker B: Lighting matters. As we wrap up, we want to reiterate how much we value your time, and we hope you found it as much fun to listen to as we had creating it. Remember to like it and share this content with your friends and colleagues.
[00:58:45] Speaker A: The opinions expressed are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the sponsors. Our content has general application, but we recommend obtaining personalized guidance from a professional IALD lighting designer such as RBLD or More Lights for your next endeavor.
